SWA speed control in ATL

[XJ-spartacus]

We use vertical speed because small tweaks to the vs doesn't make grandma puke in the back like watching a 300 try to catch the speed.

Spartacus

 

[acaTerry]

Yes, that's the problem. Those nasty auto throttles. You know this new fangled technology that ALL the other airlines use is wrong.

Autothrottles let us get nearly ref-10 last night (calm winds, gusting to light and variable)...we gave them plenty of time to unf$ck themselves. I know that its really hard to lift those arms up there but sometimes you just gotta be a pilot. Or are some of you uncertain in your abilities?

 

[PCL_128]

Sounds like you should have written up that autothrottle. No reason for it to do that in calm winds.

 

[EngineThunder]

Sounds like you should have written up that autothrottle. No reason for it to do that in calm winds.

Great advice former FO obvious. Gulfstream teach you that?

 

[Dodge4SRT]

What is it with Southwest and the V/S usage for descents? I jumpseat a lot on SW and could never figure out why guys use that thing so much, tweaking it all the time to try to get idle and airspeed. Level Change works great, try it sometime.

I don't work for WN but I'm guessing using V/S is a smoother descent maybe. If they aren't doing it for that, then I don't know why. Preference maybe.

 

[gt1900]

Hate to tell Ya this boys, but the controllers hate RSW across the board! The only difference is other controllers have learned to simply assign speeds because they know RSW likes to do their own thing..... When someone tells me to expect a short approach, it means they want to get me in FAST!!! That does NOT mean slow down. It means GET DOWN fast and go FAST!! No wonder the ATL controllers had to show up to the Ops Day in ATL to tell the RSW guys how to fly their airplanes!

 

[redflyer65]

Did you use speed brakes with flaps out at the Tran?

 

[gt1900]

It's not about speed brakes and flaps. It's about doing the speed ATC tells you and getting your Azz down. If your doing 220kias on down wind and ATC says get down, flaps 5 and point the nose over. If you need gear, throw the gear! What you DONT do is slow to 180 at flaps 5 and leasurely come down. ATC can't turn you on the base until your below 5000ft. If they have a gap for you, and you don't get down, you don't get to fill that gap. You will then get sequenced when they get to you. And trust me, in ATL, that can take a while.

 

[HowardBorden]

Hate to tell Ya this boys, but the controllers hate RSW across the board! The only difference is other controllers have learned to simply assign speeds because they know RSW likes to do their own thing..... When someone tells me to expect a short approach, it means they want to get me in FAST!!! That does NOT mean slow down. It means GET DOWN fast and go FAST!! No wonder the ATL controllers had to show up to the Ops Day in ATL to tell the RSW guys how to fly their airplanes!

When an Atlanta controller tells me "expect short approach" I expect a 10 to 12 mile final. At most other airports it means something different but since the phrase is not in the Pilot/Controller Glossary it is a somewhat grey area.

Without a speed assignment via a STAR or controller instruction everyone is doing their own thing, it's called piloting.

Expect short approach does not relieve you of your speed assignment, if given one, so in reality you shouldn't speed up or slow down but maintain the speed which was assigned. Expect short approach does not mean GO FAST!!

 

[freightdogfred]

When an Atlanta controller tells me "expect short approach" I expect a 10 to 12 mile final.

Therein lies the problem. Cut that in half you'll be right

 

[HowardBorden]

Therein lies the problem. Cut that in half you'll be right

10 to 12 comes directly from ATL Approach Control according to the ATC liaison at SWA. That's why it's published that way on the 10-7A.

"A short approach to ATL ATC is a 10-12 NM final and speed assignment adherence is crucial to proper spacing."

 

[redflyer65]

Exactly.

A 'short approach' at ATL is really a joke. SW guys are wired to 3-5 miles. Big, big difference.

 

[gt1900]

SWA guys can't get down on a 10-12 mile final, how the heck do you expect them to get down on a 3-5 mile final?

 

[gt1900]

When an Atlanta controller tells me "expect short approach" I expect a 10 to 12 mile final. At most other airports it means something different but since the phrase is not in the Pilot/Controller Glossary it is a somewhat grey area.

Without a speed assignment via a STAR or controller instruction everyone is doing their own thing, it's called piloting.

Expect short approach does not relieve you of your speed assignment, if given one, so in reality you shouldn't speed up or slow down but maintain the speed which was assigned. Expect short approach does not mean GO FAST!!

And if not given a speed assignment, it means GO FAST! 250KIAS until they slow you! Of course, I always thought that's how it worked at every airport. You start slowing in LGA because you don't like how far out they are vectoring you, and see what happens. BTW. The ATL controllers have basically given up on a 6-8 mile final for SWA. They are fed up with SWA, but they are forced to work then so they are trying to get SWA to figure it out. It hasn't worked yet.

 

[HowardBorden]

And if not given a speed assignment, it means GO FAST! 250KIAS until they slow you! Of course, I always thought that's how it worked at every airport. You start slowing in LGA because you don't like how far out they are vectoring you, and see what happens. BTW. The ATL controllers have basically given up on a 6-8 mile final for SWA. They are fed up with SWA, but they are forced to work then so they are trying to get SWA to figure it out. It hasn't worked yet.

First of all, I defy you to point to any reference in any FAA publication that says lacking a speed assignment being issued a "short approach" clearance means GO FAST!

Let's imagine ourselves on two identical midfield downwinds at 5000agl and 250kts to two parralel runways, one of us on a left downwind and one on a right downwind. If the controller issued us both "speed your discretion, cleared for the visual, make short approach." The very first thing I'm gonna do is throw the gear and slow immediately configuring as I slow until I'm in the landing configuration. While I'm coming down like a rock I'll be in position to turn a 3 mile final while your still rocketing away from the point of intended landing at 250kts.

 

[gt1900]

And that Boys, is what ATC has to deal with!!! No wonder they hate us. It seems we have no idea how to fly our airplanes at busy airports with other airplanes right behind us.......Hey Howard, they won't clear you for the visual while on downwind. They tell you "expect" a short approach. That doesn't mean Slow down!!! In ATL, or any other really busy airport where they put airplanes tight in trail, when you slow down, you just caused compression with the guy behind you. Again, they CANT turn you until you are below 5000ft at ATL due to a three runway landing configuration. While your busy slowing down to REF and causing compression behind you, you should be decending in order to be turned in to get your gap. "Expect" a short approach does not mean slow down!!

 

[SWA Bubba]

And that Boys, is what ATC has to deal with!!! No wonder they hate us. It seems we have no idea how to fly our airplanes at busy airports with other airplanes right behind us.......Hey Howard, they won't clear you for the visual while on downwind. They tell you "expect" a short approach. That doesn't mean Slow down!!! In ATL, or any other really busy airport where they put airplanes tight in trail, when you slow down, you just caused compression with the guy behind you. Again, they CANT turn you until you are below 5000ft at ATL due to a three runway landing configuration. While your busy slowing down to REF and causing compression behind you, you should be decending in order to be turned in to get your gap. "Expect" a short approach does not mean slow down!!

First, settle down before you pop something. All those exclamation points are making me wince.

Second, that's not what Howard said at all. Your reading comprehension blows. You implied that "going fast" was the best or only way to be able to get down in a hurry for a "short final," regardless of the length. He pointed out that was crap, and explained, that at a hypothetical airport, IF cleared for a visual from downwind, then dirtying up first will get you on the ground sooner, contrary to your assertion. He never said that one shouldn't follow ATC directions or that they should just do whatever they want. Nobody on this thread has ever said that, despite your implications.

Next, it appears that the only large airport that you know anything about it ATL. Good for you; now that you work for SWA, you'll see more large and/or busy airports, assuming you don't stroke out first. Guess what?--they all have their particular idiosyncrasies. And the answer isn't always, "go fast!!!!!!" (Did I put enough exclamation points in there?) Is there a learning curve at a new airport? Sure there is. ATC notes issues they find with new entrants, and management puts out memos to ensure all the pilots are aware of them. Pretty much like at every other airline.

Also, despite what's rolling around in what passes for your brain, it turns out that actually, ATC doesn't "hate SWA." I know; shocker, right? They don't "hate RSW across the board," they are not "fed up with SWA," and they haven't "given up on a 6-8 mile final" for Southwest. If you actually pay attention and ask someone other than another pissed-off FAT guy, you'll find that overall, and nationwide, Southwest has a very good reputation with ATC. And this part may also come as a surprise to you, but the average ATC controller doesn't share your SLI angst, doesn't really care if you wanted to be bought, and doesn't blame SWA, SWAPA, or RSW pilots for all the woes in their life. By the way, are you related to FreightdogFred? :angryfire

And finally, "your" is a second-person possessive pronoun. "You're" is a contraction of "you are." There's actually a difference. Hey, maybe you can get someone at Atlanta ATC to explain it to you. :blush:

Bubba

 

[Ty Webb]

First of all, I defy you to point to any reference in any FAA publication that says lacking a speed assignment being issued a "short approach" clearance means GO FAST!

Let's imagine ourselves on two identical midfield downwinds at 5000agl and 250kts to two parralel runways, one of us on a left downwind and one on a right downwind. If the controller issued us both "speed your discretion, cleared for the visual, make short approach." The very first thing I'm gonna do is throw the gear and slow immediately configuring as I slow until I'm in the landing configuration. While I'm coming down like a rock I'll be in position to turn a 3 mile final while your still rocketing away from the point of intended landing at 250kts.

Sorry, Howard, but what works in MAF/LBB/HRL doesn't work worth a damn in ATL, with three parallel approaches in progress. As GT tried to explain, they can't turn you onto your base leg until you have reached a certain altitude for that runway. If you are expecting a 12 mile final, that's what you will get. If you hustle down, you'll get a shorter approach.

ATL sequences you 3.5 miles behind similar aircraft. They want you to stay within your assigned speed +/- 5 KIAS. If you start slowing to Target on the downwind, you are gumming up the works.

Btw, I enjoy it like hell when they tell me to maintain 310 KIAS, and then slow me to 210 reaching the field, and it works out perfectly. . . . they know the performance of the 737 very well. They do a great job, if you just let them and don't try to teach them something.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm confused about how Southwest gets a 'short approach' on the right downwind for 24R in LA (Sadde 6 arrival), and we get it done. Everyday, multiple times a day. When LA says short approach...they mean 5-7 miles. We've been doing that arrival with LAX for longer than AirTran was even in business. So to insinuate RSW doesn't know what they are doing is ludicrous.

And Bubba is right. These airports have different idiosyncrasies. ATL thinks a short approach is 10-12 miles? That could be the problem. What might apply at one airport might not apply at another, and that's were the learning curve is. I'd say there are more areas across the country that appreciate how we operate vs. any that 'hate SW'.

 

[outerlimits]

I'm confused about how Southwest gets a 'short approach' on the right downwind for 24R in LA (Sadde 6 arrival), and we get it done. Everyday, multiple times a day. When LA says short approach...they mean 5-7 miles. We've been doing that arrival with LAX for longer than AirTran was even in business. So to insinuate RSW doesn't know what they are doing is ludicrous.

And Bubba is right. These airports have different idiosyncrasies. ATL thinks a short approach is 10-12 miles? That could be the problem. What might apply at one airport might not apply at another, and that's were the learning curve is. I'd say there are more areas across the country that appreciate how we operate vs. any that 'hate SW'.

Maybe Ty Web does not think LAX is busy airport .


Everything out of his mouth is AT this , AT that, AT,AT,AT


He must be a real joy to fly with .