SWA question for Chase

[GC1B Flyer]

This may be getting of the subject a bit. I do not know if any or all fractionals operate Part 135 or 121.
CR

Part 91, until Jan '05

GC-1B

 

[RJ_Driver]

Again , this post was addressed to Chase, not CRJDriver. As previously stated, I have heard plenty of interpretations from those who are vomiting forth their own guesses, and therefore, don't need more. Since you don't possess the required company knowledge that I desire, I didn't address it to you. Unless you work for the People Department of Southwest, or are otherwise respected here on this board (i.e.-Chase) for your factual opinions regarding Southwest, then don't bother responding to the questions not asked of you.

Merry Christmas,
GC-1B

How's about using the PM then, Sport? Last I checked, it's a public forum... you're gonna get all kinds (take this one for example )... deal with it.

 

[FatesPawn]

It's real simple guys, you FO's do you recive a Capt's paycheck, No, then no turbine PIC for you.

Well, not quite

I work for a fractional and am, WITHOUT QUESTION, a 3 stripe first officer.

That said:

I am type rated
I take 6 month Captain's checkrides
I collect Captain's Pay (because of our labor contract about 90% of our pilots do as well)
I fly from the left seat on emtpy legs (about 40% of our flights are empty repositioning)

additionally:

I wear 3 stripes
My name is never on the flight plan
The responsibility is not mine

So, you can see where all this confusion comes from. When I interviewed, I did NOT include any of my fractional PIC experience on my resume. Left seat - sole manipulator - type rated... I ~could~ have logged it PIC, but I already had 2300 TPIC between my old 121 regional job and Learjets. It wasn't a GREAT amount of time, but I didn't feel like embellishing my logbook.

To make it more clear, SWA could simply say "There is only 1 Captain on an airplane. Were you the Captain?" But, they don't. They use military lingo and talk about signing for the airplane and that confuses us barnstormers.


Fate

 

[FatesPawn]

This may be getting of the subject a bit. I do not know if any or all fractionals operate Part 135 or 121. But I do know of two cases where pilots were violated for logging PIC time in an aircraft they were rated for, but not qualified to be PIC by their employer. For example, everyone at SWA has a 737 type. You can only log PIC time if you are PIC qualified, which includes a current Class I medical and a current 121 appendix F proficiency check.

Fractionals operate 91 AND 135. 135 when we fly "charters" and 91 the rest of the time.

You also touched on the other issue about logging PIC. The other issue is a 3 striper like me, flying from the left seat on an empty 91 leg.... but because you only need a 1st class physical once a year (per the company), only 6 months out of the year could you even log PIC.

For me it was simply a matter of passing the smell test of being a Captain. I wasn't, so my FAR91-left-seat-sole-manipulator flight time got logged as SIC.

-Fate

 

[SWAdude]

As a former interviewer for SWA that reviewed many logbooks I thought maybe I would chime in for what my thoughts are in regards to this PIC issue.

As a civilian I know first hand how difficult it is to build the "right time" to proceed to the next job to finally get to that coveted major airline. It all starts with the multi-engine time. Unless you got real lucky you had to get at least 100 hours of multi PIC time to even qualify for any job that has multi-engine aircraft. How did we do it? We tagged along with someone we knew flying any multi-engine aircraft and hopefully would get the chance on the empty legs to get in the left seat. We would log that as PIC time. Did we sign for the aircraft? No. But we were "sole manipulator of the controls" so we justified logging the time. This was not "parker" time which I personally have no respect for and have called a few interviewees on when it was too obvious. Yes I did look specifically for that time for it was an easy integrity issue.

Now as for the PIC turbine time, SWA is looking for Captains. Not just "sole manipulator" of the controls. The one who is the ultimate decision maker and leader of the crew. The ones who work for the "fractional" type of operation that logs PIC when they are not the Captain can easily show that inexperience in the interview process. And it plainly is not PIC in that level of the profession. Its one thing to be logging light twin time and another to log PIC time on a G4 when you are not the Captain. Co-Captain does not count.

To my understanding the interview process has changed where there is not as thorough of a log book review that there has been. But in five minutes I could find any irregularities in regards to ones flight times. Don't take that chance. If you have any question to your times please be conservative.

The most common items I saw in log book mistakes were:

1) Exactly this subject, logging PIC turbine time when it obviously wasn't.

2) Simulator time is only simulator time. Its not PIC or SIC or day or night or multi or turbine or anything else. One column. This one really nice guy was an instructor at a regional and he logged his sim instructor time as PIC turbine. It disqualified him because when you took that out of his log book he didn't have the 1000 hours needed.

3) Very messy logbooks. It is hard to verify time when you really can't add up ones career.

Good luck to all.

SWAdude

 

[learflyer]

Thanks for the reply SWA dude. I think it's time to buy a new logbook and copy over the flight times and omit the "sympathy" PIC time as I call it. Your right, going the conservative route is much easier than explaining away all this questionable pic time in an interview. Happy Holidays. (i'll be on the road).

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Thanks for the insight SWADude. You make good sense. Off to the website to do some tweaking...

Unit

 

[johnny taliban]

SWADUDE,
could you elaborate on the "parker time"? My TURBINE PIC is legit but I, like many others have some multi PIC in my logged book that could be called into question. (i.e. flying left seat on dead leggs in a light twin)

Should I be concerned???

Johnny

 

[SWAdude]

SWADUDE,
could you elaborate on the "parker time"? My TURBINE PIC is legit but I, like many others have some multi PIC in my logged book that could be called into question. (i.e. flying left seat on dead leggs in a light twin)

Should I be concerned???

Johnny

First how much is some and usually it is not a concern. The "Parker" time in reference to a Parker pen is the same as "pencil whip". Time that is just entered into the log book just to build time. No flight took place. Usually ones that partake in this activity are not smart enough to cover it up well.

I know I wouldn't have been.

SWAdude

 

[Snoopy58]

One other comment on the original question. This comment overheard from a current interviewer: if your logbook for fractional time looks like this

SIC leg
PIC leg
SIC leg
PIC leg
etc

and then suddenly starts to look like this

PIC leg
PIC leg
PIC leg
PIC leg
PIC leg

it's pretty clear when you became the "signed for the airplane," making the decisions guy in charge. Now, if you have 3000 hours of PIC after that point and are including 500 hours from before that point, you probably won't get shot down, because you clearly DO have well over the 1000 hours T-PIC that's needed. HOWEVER, if you only make 1000 hours by including the time from the "every other leg" PIC flights, your chances of getting rejected are pretty high.

No, that's not verbatim from the web site, but that's how at least one interviewer sees it, and I have a hard time disagreeing with him.

 

[johnny taliban]

SWADUDE,

"some" is probably about 30 hours of light twin time. I was MEL rated and of the understanding that it was acceptable to log that time as PIC. It is a VERY SMALL fraction of my total PIC (2100ish).

Once again, should I be concerned???? (snoopy, care to chime in?)

Johnny

 

[SWAdude]

SWADUDE,

"some" is probably about 30 hours of light twin time. I was MEL rated and of the understanding that it was acceptable to log that time as PIC. It is a VERY SMALL fraction of my total PIC (2100ish).

Once again, should I be concerned???? (snoopy, care to chime in?)

Johnny

Personally I wouldn't be concerned. Without looking at your logbooks and seeing all your qualifications I wouldn't want to misguide you but like I said in my earlier post, most all of the civilians did this to some degree and yours sounds minimal.

SWAdude

 

[singlespeed]

SWAdude,

I have a very gray question(s). I don’t work for a fraq I work for a part 91 operator. I am a considered a captain at my company.

1. I got typed some time ago and when I did I had to have X amount of hours PIC to met the insurance mins. in type. I did most of the hrs with the CP. I did all flight planning and filed flight plans under my name made go/no go decisions. Will SWA count this as PIC? It’s our version of high mins.

2. Once off high mins. the CP was retiring and did not want to do as much. So when I flew with him I filed flight plans made go/no go decisions etc. How would SWA view this?

3. I fly with other people in the company who are more senior than I and we split the legs or days. One day I’ll do all flight planning with my name on the flight plan and the next the other person will file the legs. Would I be PIC on the legs that I filled?

4. If a train left San Diego at ….Opps wrong board

Thanks in advanced. I have plenty of single pilot King Air time and I did a lot of flying with the “old” new guy. At my company our hard fast rule is at one year you can sign for the aircraft but before this you are considered captain in training. The “old” new guy cruised after 10 months to go to SWA.

I stopped using a crayon to log entries about a year ago. I hope this helps with the interview process.

 

[SWAdude]

SWAdude,

I have a very gray question(s). I don’t work for a fraq I work for a part 91 operator. I am a considered a captain at my company.

1. I got typed some time ago and when I did I had to have X amount of hours PIC to met the insurance mins. in type. I did most of the hrs with the CP. I did all flight planning and filed flight plans under my name made go/no go decisions. Will SWA count this as PIC? It’s our version of high mins.

2. Once off high mins. the CP was retiring and did not want to do as much. So when I flew with him I filed flight plans made go/no go decisions etc. How would SWA view this?

3. I fly with other people in the company who are more senior than I and we split the legs or days. One day I’ll do all flight planning with my name on the flight plan and the next the other person will file the legs. Would I be PIC on the legs that I filled?

4. If a train left San Diego at ….Opps wrong board

Thanks in advanced. I have plenty of single pilot King Air time and I did a lot of flying with the “old” new guy. At my company our hard fast rule is at one year you can sign for the aircraft but before this you are considered captain in training. The “old” new guy cruised after 10 months to go to SWA.

I stopped using a crayon to log entries about a year ago. I hope this helps with the interview process.

Good question.

Did the CP also log this as PIC?? If you didn't meet the insurance minimums I would imagine he did or would have.

If SWA called the CP what would he tell them?

Answer this question. How much PIC time are we talking about??

SWAdude

 

[singlespeed]

Good question.

Did the CP also log this as PIC?? If you didn't meet the insurance minimums I would imagine he did or would have.

If SWA called the CP what would he tell them?

Answer this question. How much PIC time are we talking about??

SWAdude

He told me to go ahead and log it as PIC-T and that he was the FO on the trips. It was only 100 hrs and I waited till I hit 1100 PIC-T to submit my app. I've done the majority of my flying with the new guys that have been here less than one year. So the second part is clear.

I'm on a new rotation and now I fly with people how have been here a little longer but we still split the duties. We split the rotation so no two people get stuck together too long. I’ve been very lucky or unlucky if you will, because it takes us about 6-7 months to replace someone and get them on line. We have done this twice in less then two years. Contract FO's equal ALL PIC-T

 

[NEDude]

If you want to go one further, how about a turbine aircraft that does not require a type rating, operating under part 91 (ie. a PC-12). Does the person in the left seat, who is qualified (ASEL) and sole manipulator of the controls but not designated as PIC by the aircraft operator, get to log PIC for SWA?

Not really looking for an answer, but more to make a point - you could slice the equation many different ways. Every situation is unique.

I can only speak from authority on one thing, the PD at SWA is very helpful. I called them to ask a question about part of my app, and they were helpful and friendly. Take the advice Chase gave and call them. Unlike most other airlines, they really seem to enjoy helping people with the application process.

 

[chase]

thanks NE Dude

Another satisfied customer....calling the PD...priceless! Nothing like getting the real info!!!