SWA pilots going to vote down the TA

[scoreboardII]

Grass roots effort to vote the TA down:

http://voteyourfuture.org/

Unofficial tally on SWAPA website 345 against, 4 for the TA.

 

[N1atEcon]

Yeah right! My guess is it will pass at 65 to 70%. just because 345 put down a "no" doesn't mean squat. Believe me, I think we need to vote it down, and vote it down big. But I still think it will pass.

 

[shootr]

I will vote "no" and try my best to help educate others into voting the same. It feels like we have a chance of voting it down but I'll believe it when I witness it! :laugh:

shootr

 

[pilotyip]

what is so bad about the TA?

 

[swaforme]

Where on the SWAPA website do I find the unofficial tally??

 

[jhill]

what is so bad about the TA?

Being one who has not made up my mind I would like to know specifically what you would change in the TA. Be realistic because code share is going to be in there. The deal has been done with two carriers and will not be changed. You know as well as I the only recourse we have is a strike and that will never happen. SWAPA will never even take a strike vote because the results would be disastrous for the pilots and only serve to embolden the company (IMO). I for one don't see much if any improvement once a mediator gets involved and that’s where it is going when/if it is voted down. I wish I could be more optimistic because this group is going to be very disappointed for the next 3 years with this deal whether slight changes are made or not. Welcome to a mature stagnant airline. 13 year upgrades and much less flexibility with your schedule.

 

[JumpJetter]

Just because the TA gets voted down (1) does not mean the only recourse is a strike and (2) it does not mean a mediator gets involved.

If this was voted down it would be the first time the SWA pilot group has done so. Other unionized groups at swa have. It WOULD send a message to the company that SWA pilots are already THE most productive of the major airlines and the changes management wanted with regard to the Line Improvement Trip Trade system and Lance Captain program are not acceptable.

it's no one thing....its death of a TA by a thousand paper cuts.

jj

 

[RedDogC130]

Do not look for answers here. Go on SWAPA or PPrune and there are plenty of reasons to vote this down. Reserve policy, ELITT changes, Canceled flight no pay, Open Time changes...on and on...Go read what people have found don't be lazy and look here...read it for yourself. Your right I feel the codeshare is here to stay but we need to protect ourselves from the unkown when the company meets those numbers in the contract with regards to the limits imposed.

 

[shootr]

Without going into details here and assuming near international codeshare is here to stay, we can't accept this concessionary contract. A 2% raise or possibly 7-9% raise for senior FO's does not make up for an up to 30% pay cut for many due to schedule, work rules, and flexibility changes. While I don't advocate for those who scam the system at everybody's expense, the company has taken mucho dinero in this TA with little in return. Please read the actual TA before you vote! You'll be floored by the details!

It's OK to vote "No"!
shootr

 

[Daddy]

jhill,
If you are on the fence then you have not read the TA yet. It gives so many concessions in so many areas in scheduling, it is almost impossible to digest them all. The executive summary is a joke and does not tell the story. In short, it gives away the flexibility and time and a half flying that we have now, but gets next to nothing in return. All groups get a 401K increase and every other SWA labor group got 3% or better per year raises. We will not even get one for 2010 OR 2011 unless we double our operating margin (hint: not gonna happen). It really is OK to say no...the world will not end. Remember...we HAVE a great contract now AND we are making money. There is no reason to give everything away here.

 

[PCL_128]

You guys need someone like Lear70 to take care of this. When our crappy TA came out, he worked around the clock to put out a huge TA rebuttal that pointed out every concession and every loophole. The result was a failed TA (by a wide margin) that would have passed if it wasn't for his hard work. Someone should step up and do the work, and then you guys will be saved from making a big mistake.

 

[RedDogC130]

I think it is in the works

 

[thruthemurk]

That really caught my eye. Having had this in a previous life at a scumbag outfit this is hard to believe at SWA. The loss of time and a half for pickup will kill quality of life for the junior and on reserve.

 

[clickclickboom]

I can only hope that my brothers at JETBLUE can at some point get off their blue juice laden butts and even remotely begin to have the resolve that the SWA pilots have..

Our management tean got $250,000 stock bonuses the day the union drive was defeated and yet 67% of our pilots want to sing came fire songs in a circle around the fire.

Vote it down and set the upward trend for ALL pilots

 

[Daddy]

I can only hope that my brothers at JETBLUE can at some point get off their blue juice laden butts and even remotely begin to have the resolve that the SWA pilots have..

No offense, but I cant help but laugh at that...trust me there is no real resolve among SWA pilots...just a vocal few. I am getter closer and closer to the realization that MOST pilots are either really apathetic or REALLY stupid (maybe both). Chances are, if you are here or another forum, you are not apathetic and thus cant relate, but we have lots of people who have not and will not EVER read the TA and others that will not even vote. I cant understand why ANYONE would not fight, kick, scratch, bite, and do everything in their power to keep what they have in this day in age in this industry, but I guess that is where the stupid comes into play. It will take a monumental effort to defeat this TA but it is totally doable...we will see. I cant imagine anyone who has read it thoroughly would vote yes...there are just SO many concessions with SO little in return.

 

[RedDogC130]

That is why you have to have the conversation with the guys you fly with and even if it is uncomfortable have the talk. Know your $hit to back up the facts. The only way to get people to open their eyes is to talk about it.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Yeah right! My guess is it will pass at 65 to 70%. just because 345 put down a "no" doesn't mean squat. Believe me, I think we need to vote it down, and vote it down big. But I still think it will pass.

Posts line the one by jhill above prove you are right.

Southwest has a majority of yes vote weakdicks, and is what makes the jobs of executives like myself really easy.

Let them eat cake and collect their paltry 3%.

 

[RedDogC130]

Let them eat cake and collect their paltry 3%.

2% get your facts right

 

[luckytohaveajob]

When Age 65 was being decided what were the SWA pilots and SWAPA saying about the consequences of Age 65 concerning the future?

No offense, but I cant help but laugh at that...trust me there is no real resolve among SWA pilots...just a vocal few. I am getter closer and closer to the realization that MOST pilots are either really apathetic or REALLY stupid (maybe both). Chances are, if you are here or another forum, you are not apathetic and thus cant relate, but we have lots of people who have not and will not EVER read the TA and others that will not even vote. I cant understand why ANYONE would not fight, kick, scratch, bite, and do everything in their power to keep what they have in this day in age in this industry, but I guess that is where the stupid comes into play. It will take a monumental effort to defeat this TA but it is totally doable...we will see. I cant imagine anyone who has read it thoroughly would vote yes...there are just SO many concessions with SO little in return.

 

[afhercdriver]

You guys need someone like Lear70 to take care of this. When our crappy TA came out, he worked around the clock to put out a huge TA rebuttal that pointed out every concession and every loophole. The result was a failed TA (by a wide margin) that would have passed if it wasn't for his hard work. Someone should step up and do the work, and then you guys will be saved from making a big mistake.

Did he get his job back?

 

[PCL_128]

Did he get his job back?

He's still waiting for his arbitration date. He'll be back, though.

 

[GuppyWN]

Being one who has not made up my mind I would like to know specifically what you would change in the TA. Be realistic because code share is going to be in there. The deal has been done with two carriers and will not be changed. You know as well as I the only recourse we have is a strike and that will never happen. SWAPA will never even take a strike vote because the results would be disastrous for the pilots and only serve to embolden the company (IMO). I for one don't see much if any improvement once a mediator gets involved and that’s where it is going when/if it is voted down. I wish I could be more optimistic because this group is going to be very disappointed for the next 3 years with this deal whether slight changes are made or not. Welcome to a mature stagnant airline. 13 year upgrades and much less flexibility with your schedule.

So you resigning yourself to the fact that even though it's a bad deal for you it will pass?

I'm not.

I am one of the people involved in the behind the scenes education campaign. I care so I got involved.

I refuse to sit by while SWA destroys my productivity, my flexibility, and my future.

I see a lot of talk about "hey we're getting a raise." Let me ask you a question. If you make $10/hour and your boss gives you a raise to $12/hour but cuts your hours and your ability to work overtime - did you still get a raise? That exact senario is what this TA does.

Read the CONTRACT, not the executive summary.

Gup

 

[RedDogC130]

Gup are they going to get a product out there soon? I do not want people to make up their minds before it is too late without current info on "our" side of the table

 

[ivauir]

I do not want people to make up their minds before it is too late without current info on "our" side of the table

WHy shouldn't they, you made you mind up before the contract was even on the website ...

 

[BOOZENEWS]

He's still waiting for his arbitration date. He'll be back, though.

With full back pay plus inflation I hope, right??

 

[Orionflyer]

How does the TA change the ability of pilots to work overtime?

That ability is basically a function of our staffing level. If there is too much flying for a given number of pilots, there will be lots of open time. If not enough (i.e. lately), then open time is harder to grab.

This contract changes the way open time is obtained (and does restrict certain elements of ELITT), but if you were a 130 trip/month guy before, that's not gonna change.

The ratio of premium to straight time flying won't change, either, since that is also simply a function of pilot staffing.

What am I missing??

 

[RedDogC130]

With regards to ELITT it will now not allow you to drop/switch the number of trips you may have done before to let you trade with the company or pick up more dense trip with higher TFP. The flex that we once had will be gone..I was a big user of ELITT to trade my crummy line with trips that were better and maybe move weekend flying to the weekday if I had stuff to do....that will all be gone for the most part if it passes..that is a fact based on the company throwing more DTC over more than just 1 weekend a month

 

[fiel12]

the crappy codeshare language alone was enough to persuade me to vote NO.

 

[firstthird]

The ratio of premium to straight time flying won't change, either, since that is also simply a function of pilot staffing.

What am I missing??

Maybe nothing, maybe everything.

The restriction of ELITT, killing of the lance program, and more efficient open time awards combine to make uncovered flying less likely.

when does most of the JA/VJA happen now, on the weekends. why? more uncovered flying.

The TA mandates more reserves (10% vs 8%). The TA neuters the lance program, meaning less sweet turns and two days for guys to pick up, making guys more willing to fly for straight time vs. premium.

I expect that premium open time will go down substantially, but that is just an educated guess. I am not alone in that assessment though.

 

[Orionflyer]

With regards to ELITT:

CONS:

- additional DTC restrictions in the form of 2% on two weekends each month plus the 2 weekends (for the yr) chosen by the company. (as opposed to 1 weekend now).

- restriction to trading down only 4 duty periods (days): similar to the current 65 trip min but yes, more restrictive.

PROS:

- shorter window (57 hr vs 105 hr) to trade before trip

- more seniority in place in that trips that are dropped into open time after MOT (i.e. mil) will now go through some DOT before just being thrown into ELITT for whoever is lucky enough to see it first.

SAME:

- holiday DTC restrictions are the same as they are now.

I'm sure I missed some points. The company wanted the whole thing gone because the migration of crappy, rig-stripped, broken pairings to the weekends is a scheduling and reserve staffing issue. They have a point. It looks like we retained the basic concept with a few more restrictions but with a few improvements.

Is it really so negative that someone should vote no over it??

My previous point remains unchallenged.... our ability to fly open time, both premium and straight, is unchanged by the TA. ELITT might change when you can get your extra 30 trips a month, but you'll still be able to do it.