SWA P.I.C. Requirement ??

[temcgrew]

does the definition of PIC time on the SWA website allow an F/O WITH A TYPE RATING and AS THE SOLE MANIPULATOR of the controls to count that time towards the 1,000 turbine PIC requirement?

here is what the definition says from the website:

"*Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC"

can the sole manipulator of the aircraft be the F/O? or is it saying the pilot in the left seat only when he is the sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC time?

Desperately seeking PIC time......

 

[js31pilot]

In short......without getting too deep into the defenitions.....you have to be a Captain. At least that is how I read that defenition.

 

[English]

I did my 737 type at K&S Aviation in December. A PHX Assistant Chief Pilot came in to speak with us about SWA hiring, and he said that they allow an F/O flying in the left seat to log PIC time if typed. The question was asked of him from the corporate world stand-point, as in part 91 ops when the F/O is typed and flying from the left seat. We were told this complies with SWA's PIC requirement.

If you are flying 135 or 121, then, no, 'cuz how are you going to get into the left seat to begin with? So, if you are flying part 91, time to get chummy and talk your captain into let you fly from the left seat.

 

[PSL]

JS31Pilot:

You are correct ... the PIC time is per FAR Part 1 ... in short ... the person who signed for the aircraft.

FOs with type ratings (if applicable) and flying the leg can not use that time towards the PIC requirement at SWA.

IPs and ACs can log that time in which they are acting as such. Military 2nd seaters CAN use the time they accumulate in seat (if they are flying the leg) if they have previously qualified as ACs.

At least that's how I understand how the system works ...

 

[shootr]

Been through the process, asked all the necessary questions, and without fail, all SWA People Dept. people that I came in contact were very firm on this point...

"Were you in charge of the plane? Yes? Then you were the PIC. No? Then, somebody else was the PIC. In other words, Captain (Aircraft Commander for Military)." Just opinion, I could be wrong. However, this opinion is from a military point of view.

Quote from the web-site...

"For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC."

It seems this is a loop-hole that a part 91 F/O could use to define his PIC, if he were in the left seat and the only pilot on the controls. This seems like the only case, other than Captain, you can count your time as PIC but be prepared for "Lucy! You have some 'splainin' to do!" Be conservative if you can.

The web site quote "For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot.", makes it obvious that Military must be the A/C.

Good Luck!
shootr

 

[English]

shootr,

I agree, be conservative. I was surprised to hear that F/Os could log PIC time under certain circumstances. In fact, I asked several questions just to clarify that I had actually heard what I thought I heard.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

At our airline (both 121 and 135 ops), an FO, without a type rating, can fly from the left seat, if he's with a checkairman/instructor. If he's with a line captain, he can fly from the left seat with a left seat letter from the chief pilot.

So, apparently, he could log jet PIC time when he's in the left seat and it's his leg to fly.

Cliff
GRB

 

[cgmason1]

Allot of companies do this--they are called relief pilots for long legs.
For example-Atlas types their F/O's on the 747's and while the CPT is taking a snooze two FO's can be flying together.
But by the definition of Part 1--the CPT taking a snooze is still responsible for the aircraft.
(not sure of all their requirements to do this--just what I have been told)
Basically Part 1 means whoever is soley responsible--ie signed for the aircraft.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[shootr]

atpcliff,

The F/O in the left seat may only log if he has the type rating, is in the left seat, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Again, this is not a conservative method. Although you might see SWA as an easy going laid-back company, my impression is that in their pilot hiring process, they are looking for Captains that have shown an ability to lead an aircrew. A pilot might make it to the interview with 500 of real part I PIC and 500 of sole manipulator of controls with a type in the left seat, but I doubt he would be close to competetive with regard to his leadership experience. Then again, they hired me with only P-3 and T-34 time!

Good Luck,
shootr

 

[Pilotbob3]

how does jetblue define it? can a type rated fo sitting in the captains seat for a international flight log it?

 

[shootr]

From the Jetblue website...

"1000 hours PIC (Jetblue considers PIC as the Pilot who signs for/is primarily responsible for the aircraft)"

shootr

 

[EMBATP]

how about this?

what if the corporate flight dept. hires you as co-captain? the f/o is typed, but keeps flying from the rt. seat. technically, in the part 91 corporate world, the chief pilot is pic, even if the other guy is a co-captain. unless they swap seats and the chief pilot lets him fly from the left seat.

 

[Flyky]

Another Example!

My wife flew as an F/O on a 767 from STL to the Islands and Europe. Longer than 8 hr flights! She is typed along with the relief pilot. While the Capt. snoozes for 3 hours she is in the left seat/ sole manipulator of the controls and typed. I would think that is PIC time. The Capt. did sign for the A/C but he is out cold in the back ( and some of those old guys really can saw logs).

Just throwing that out for discussion.

Maybe we can count on ole Chase to give us his two cents worth!

Flyky

 

[LearLove]

Straight up from someone at SWA, is a check airman, has ben a newhire sim instructor and part of past hirring boards. TO MEET THE 1000 PIC requirement at SWA it has to be TURBINE and you are the CAPT, i.e. the PERSON RESPONSIBLE. an fo with a type flying from ANY seat DOES NOT COUNT, in any part 121, 135, 91. Now 91 is easy to get away with, all he/she has to do is get the boss to say he/she was the capt and presto. However If your 121 or 135 you have paper work following you around.


from their web:

*Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft


"For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC"

I see some are sighting this but I asked a guy "in the know" and he said it an area of "it depends" like it depend if they catch it or not and who does the catching, he said that most likley it not looked upon as good and right now they have plenty of pilots who meet the 1000pic without using this.

He made it very clear that they want at least 1000 hours of you being the guy in charge, i.e. the guy who the airline, FAA, Military sees/assigned as who's in charge, not who the 2 of you decided who's in charge.

But anyone whishing to try it go ahead, It will only mean less compition for those who don't bend/push the rules.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The SWA requirement sounds like the UAL, except that UAL, as I understand it, will only take PIC if you are the one responsible (no exceptions). This extends even to cover military pilots flying solo-if they are in pilot training. It is not PIC, because an instructor is responsible, even though they're not in the plane.

I have logged all my possible PIC time as PIC, but if I were to apply to SWA, or whoever had a similar requirement, I would only list the PIC time where I was the one responsible for the aircraft.

Cliff
GRB

 

[looseca]

The above post seems accurate. I didn't count somewhere around 70 or so hours of solo jet time from my training command and RAG days where I signed for the aircraft, but was not NATOPS rated in the aircraft yet. Some of that time as a student included carrier landings, blah, blah, blah...but I wasn't technically rated in the aircraft so I didn't count it. Seems conservative, but that's the gouge I recieved and used. Good luck!

 

[enigma]

If you have to use any interpretation of PIC other than "I was the designated pilot who was/is, current/qualified, solely responsible and Signed for the aircraft, then you are probably outside of the bounds of SWA's PIC definition.

When I tried to get on at SWA I had only part 91 PIC time. I was a corporate co-Captain who swapped legs and swapped seats. I logged all time as PIC accordance with the advice of an FAA inspector. No one ever "signed" for the aircraft. Just the fact that no one signed for the aircraft caused me trouble. I counted only my left seat time as PIC for SWA application purposes, but having logged it all gave the appearance of impropriety. I don't know that the question of PIC was the sole reason I was not selected, I know that I was minimally qualified, low time, and had only an associates degree, but my inside friends confirmed later that it had had a negative effect.

Take it from someone who probably blew his best chance at his dream job. DO NOT take the chance of even the appearance of misleading flight time. You are better off waiting an extra two years to interview, than you are to be forced to wait two years because you failed the first time.

regards,
enigma