SWA Lance Captains (seat swapping pilots)

[Kharma Police]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Then you have no clue about flexibility

 

[redflyer65]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

 

[outerlimits]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

Our check airman can I am guessing ur talking about something else

 

[gobyebye]

At swa, the top 3.2% FO's of each base can bid to be captain qualified. They still bid as FO's but can then pick up to 9 days worth of captain trips. I believe the original intent was to give swa flexibility to have captains available on short notice if the schedule called for it on a monthly basis.

 

[DCAA320]

At Chautauqua we would fly as FO but paid for CA.

 

[humveedriver]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

After the transition I bid my senior FO line and flew my trips Tu through Thur PM's. Focused on days off pay be damned. Picked up one charter in 2 years. Then I became a Lance and by default had to learn how the system works. You should notice that Lances are senior to the bottom reserve Captains. That's because it is better. You still get the days off and vacation time that you want. I never looked at Trip Trade Give Away (ever). That all changed. It forced me to see how trips are given away and picked through the 20 day bid adjustment (award to Elitt opening). A lance benefits by getting a better Captian trip at straight time than he/she could as a reserve (weekday). But that is what gets the ball rolling for the next twenty days as folks try to clear their boards to pick up open time. Especially important in the summer. Less senior FO's get the weekday FO trips that the Lances give away. Everyone benefits. During the slow months reserve blocks get picked up too. My only beef with the program is when I check a Lances board and they aren't flying any Capt trips. I try to hit my 9 days every month.

 

[Tripower455]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

Yup.......

FWIW, I haven't lanced in almost 15 years, and restricting the LCs in the last contract has killed a lot of flexibility. Especially when combined with the rest of the SWApA "gains" like Duties to Cover and Duty Count. The numerous SLs helped immensely too.

 

[Kharma Police]

Then you have no clue about flexibility

Let me see if I can figure out this "flexibility" thing that I'm missing out on. A more senior part time FO takes a line that I would've liked to have (which he has no intention of flying). He dumps his trash into open time so after I've done the work of getting my board cleared, I have to spend time and patiently wait by my computer for him to try and get rid of his stuff in hopes of adding the trip which I would've liked to have flown in the first place? Sounds like the program benefits only the Lance Captain who wants it both ways and his FO buddies that he leaves the trips to.

 

[Tripower455]

Let me see if I can figure out this "flexibility" thing that I'm missing out on. A more senior part time FO takes a line that I would've liked to have (which he has no intention of flying). He dumps his trash into open time so after I've done the work of getting my board cleared, I have to spend time and patiently wait by my computer for him to try and get rid of his stuff in hopes of adding the trip which I would've liked to have flown in the first place? Sounds like the program benefits only the Lance Captain who wants it both ways and his FO buddies that he leaves the trips to.

Well, the Captains that are giving away trips that they don't want also benefit by having another outlet to do so. For every Lance that bypasses a Capt slot, the guy junior to him gets it. Etc.

Unless the one line that you'd fly without modification (yeah, right) is always taken by a Lance, there is very little downside IMHO.

 

[Kharma Police]

Well, the Captains that are giving away trips that they don't want also benefit by having another outlet to do so. For every Lance that bypasses a Capt slot, the guy junior to him gets it. Etc.

Unless the one line that you'd fly without modification (yeah, right) is always taken by a Lance, there is very little downside IMHO.

The real issue is that we aren't allowed to drop trips.

 

[Tripower455]

The real issue is that we aren't allowed to drop trips.

Among many others.......


The ELITT restrictions are a lot of the problem too. This last TA really reduced the effectiveness of ELITT.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

SWABubba volunteered to sit right sit the other day to "help out". The only thing he helped out though was the Nathan's hot dog stand where he bought those 3 hot dogs with extra mustard.

 

[outerlimits]

At Chautauqua we would fly as FO but paid for CA.

How is that CRJ pay working out for you?

,,



Funny how you now look down at us now that your gone


Glad you feel your better than us .

 

[JT12345]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

Not sure in benefits the company. Sounds like it creates more havoc and costs. Sounds like it benefits the pilots tremendously.

 

[humveedriver]

Not sure in benefits the company. Sounds like it creates more havoc and costs. Sounds like it benefits the pilots tremendously.

Every former AirTran Captain was a Lance Captain by default (we were all Right seat qualified). The only difference was the Captains bid Captain lines and vacation. Then if they wanted to, they could pick up FO trips. But every Captain was right seat qualified. The Lance program at SWA just limits the number of pilots qualified to fly both seats. Get rid of the Lance program and you better believe you will see right seat dependent tasks in your next Captain check ride.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Just be quiet and help the company. Heck go pass out some peanuts like the jumpseater clown yesterday going to DAL. He was glad handing and hob-nobbing with the pax. Kid next to me asked why was the pilot handing out snacks? Oh I wanted to tell him what I really thought but kept quiet.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Every former AirTran Captain was a Lance Captain by default (we were all Right seat qualified). The only difference was the Captains bid Captain lines and vacation. Then if they wanted to, they could pick up FO trips. But every Captain was right seat qualified. The Lance program at SWA just limits the number of pilots qualified to fly both seats. Get rid of the Lance program and you better believe you will see right seat dependent tasks in your next Captain check ride.

I think you're mistaken here. No captain, other than a lance or a check airman, is allowed to fly from the right seat. The company wants to get rid of lances to further minimize the seat swapping allowed, because they believe it is a liability for them, especially from the standpoint that is the most junior captains trying to maintain currency in both seats.

If the company is successful in eliminating the lance program, there's no way they'd then allow a "reverse lance" program of having captains flying from the right seat. It would have the exact same liability they're trying to avoid now, plus they'd be paying two captain rates, instead of a captain and an F/O rate. I suspect you only see this at carriers with smaller total numbers of pilots, because they have no other choice for flexibility to man their schedules.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Wait. I thought SWApA wanted LC eliminated. The LC restrictions in this contract were touted as one of the many SWApA "gains" that our crack "negotiators" were able to wrest from the clutches of the company. No wonder the current " negotiations'" are taking so long. GK is still reeling from the shellacking we gave him last time!

 

[humveedriver]

I think you're mistaken here. No captain, other than a lance or a check airman, is allowed to fly from the right seat. The company wants to get rid of lances to further minimize the seat swapping allowed, because they believe it is a liability for them, especially from the standpoint that is the most junior captains trying to maintain currency in both seats.

If the company is successful in eliminating the lance program, there's no way they'd then allow a "reverse lance" program of having captains flying from the right seat. It would have the exact same liability they're trying to avoid now, plus they'd be paying two captain rates, instead of a captain and an F/O rate. I suspect you only see this at carriers with smaller total numbers of pilots, because they have no other choice for flexibility to man their schedules.

Bubba

You may be right. But I believe if the company is successful at getting rid of the lance program it will have unintended consequences. The result will be Captains who fly from the right seat. There is no liability issue. Both pilots are PIC qualified for the airplane. From a training standpoint, it's 5 minutes of slides and oral questions, right seat landing and "pulling" the alt gear extension cables. Voila. You are good to go. I understand under the current system only check airman and Lances can fly both seats. My point is, I think the company will jump on the two seats for the price of one flexibility, and claim the absence of the lance program was the result. As I see it, it's just economy of force.

I'm confused about your comment about smaller carriers? Seems like the same logic still applies at SWA, as the historically run lean on pilots and reserves. Evident by the high number of JA's this summer.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wait. I thought SWApA wanted LC eliminated. The LC restrictions in this contract were touted as one of the many SWApA "gains" that our crack "negotiators" were able to wrest from the clutches of the company. No wonder the current " negotiations'" are taking so long. GK is still reeling from the shellacking we gave him last time!

Actually, you're mistaken. SWAPA did not want the lance captain program eliminated, and they most certainly did not "tout" lance restrictions as a "gain" in the last contract. What happened was that they bargained to keep the program (as the pilots wanted), while the company wanted it gone immediately and in its entirety. What we got was a compromise, which reportedly was as far as the company would go. And I assume that we got a little something, for giving the company a partial gain that they wanted. The fact is, that if the union wanted the program gone, it would have been gone, since the company has wanted it gone for a long, long time.

And I realize you're one of those guys who hates the union, for whatever reason you have (did you run for office and get beaten or something?). I also realize that no matter who's in power, and no matter what they do or accomplish, you'll still bitch about it. And that nothing they do will ever be considered good, or even adequate, in your eyes. There's a few guys like that on this and other boards.

But perhaps you'd be taken a little more seriously, if you didn't do such childish things as referring to the union as "SWApA" instead of SWAPA. When moderates see posts containing obvious smartass exaggerations like yours, and the union referred to as "SWApA" or "SNAPA," instead of by its real name, they realize that they're reading the thoughts of an extremist anti-anything-SWAPA guy, and they can safely be ignored.

You might want to consider that. Assuming, of course, that you want to be taken seriously, that is.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

You may be right. But I believe if the company is successful at getting rid of the lance program it will have unintended consequences. The result will be Captains who fly from the right seat. There is no liability issue. Both pilots are PIC qualified for the airplane. From a training standpoint, it's 5 minutes of slides and oral questions, right seat landing and "pulling" the alt gear extension cables. Voila. You are good to go. I understand under the current system only check airman and Lances can fly both seats. My point is, I think the company will jump on the two seats for the price of one flexibility, and claim the absence of the lance program was the result. As I see it, it's just economy of force.

What matters is that the company believes it's a liability issue. And that's as reported by numerous training center guys, as well as the former VP FltOps himself, everybody's favorite Chuck Magill.

I'm confused about your comment about smaller carriers? Seems like the same logic still applies at SWA, as the historically run lean on pilots and reserves. Evident by the high number of JA's this summer.

And while I certainly agree that you're entitled to your opinion (and I agree that it would be relatively easy to qualify captains in the right seat), it's my opinion that the company won't do it. My opinion is based on what I've seen and heard here. Besides the presumed liability issue, there's practical ones as well. The union and pilots will bitch, and it might be relatively hard to get a captain to sit in the right seat. Any captain who does this will be denigrated or ostracized for his actions, as the belief is that in that case, the company needs to hire more F/Os. I've seen that at some carriers, captains who fly right seat are referred to as scabs (not that I agree with the characterization). It would probably be easier for the company to get a F/O to do it for premium (greedy pilots literally fight over premium flying) that a reluctant captain, for the same cost. Plus, if they're down to absolutely no available FOs to fly, there probably aren't any free captains sitting around who could do it. Historically, the company JAs captains at a higher rate than FOs.

As far as company size goes, I said that because that makes a much higher pool to draw premium flyers from, compared to a smaller company. I don't know that any other large carriers do that. Can a United, American or Delta guy chime in here? Do any of you guys have captains flying right seat?

Anyway, that's my opinion. I guess we'll see what actually happens.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Actually, you're mistaken. SWAPA did not want the lance captain program eliminated, and they most certainly did not "tout" lance restrictions as a "gain" in the last contract. What happened was that they bargained to keep the program (as the pilots wanted), while the company wanted it gone immediately and in its entirety. What we got was a compromise, which reportedly was as far as the company would go. And I assume that we got a little something, for giving the company a partial gain that they wanted. The fact is, that if the union wanted the program gone, it would have been gone, since the company has wanted it gone for a long, long time.

Maybe I am mistaken about it being touted as a SWApA "gain", (I think I still have the SWAPA GAINS! SWApAganda pamphlet around somewhere. It was so unbelievable, that I think I kept it)but CK and Brink were both vocal opponents of the LC and ELITT programs as long as I have been here, so forgive me if I mistook the the LC issue as one of the many SWApA "gains" in the current CBA. It's kind of hard to tell the difference when most of the "gains" weren't

And I realize you're one of those guys who hates the union, for whatever reason you have (did you run for office and get beaten or something?).

I don't hate the union. I hate the constant concessions SWApA gives to the company, on every single issue. It's been going on as long as I've been here. We rarely, if ever, get anything for our efforts. We'll see if this BOD has the nuts to reject the turd that's surely in the pipeline.

Oh, and I was beaten by somewhere around 13 votes in the first one, and 9 in the runoff, IIRC. Not sure what difference that makes. Good thing the other guy won, and quit before he was recalled!

I also realize that no matter who's in power, and no matter what they do or accomplish, you'll still bitch about it. And that nothing they do will ever be considered good, or even adequate, in your eyes. There's a few guys like that on this and other boards.

Sorry, but damn near every BOD we've had in my tenure here has given away the store on just about every issue placed before them.

This job sucks more today than it did 10 years ago, and much of that suckiness is directly attributable to SWApA's constant capitulation to management. What, 16 side letters, many during "negotiations", and nothing, whatsoever (except more work for less pay and far worse QOL) to show for them.

Now, they're not even denying that we're giving away codeshare, better retirement, retro and other stuff, all for sub cola "raises".

We've got a lot of great guys on the BOD right now. I hope that they have the collective sack to flush the turd that is surely being churned up by the Toms.

But perhaps you'd be taken a little more seriously, if you didn't do such childish things as referring to the union as "SWApA" instead of SWAPA. When moderates see posts containing obvious smartass exaggerations like yours, and the union referred to as "SWApA" or "SNAPA," instead of by its real name, they realize that they're reading the thoughts of an extremist anti-anything-SWAPA guy, and they can safely be ignored.

Yup, "safely ignored". If the pilot group had listened to the "extremists", instead of Club 19 for the last decade or so, we'd not be having this discussion.

You might want to consider that. Assuming, of course, that you want to be taken seriously, that is.



Bubba

Personally, I don't GAS. You guys are going to do the same thing you always do.: Accept and hard sell another substandard TA like we took the company to the cleaners, when, in fact, the opposite will be the case.

Only SWApA could mess this up in "this environment".

Posts like yours are a sure sign that another concessionary TA is imminent.

Seriously, I would LOVE to be wrong, just once, and unlike former SWApA types, would freely admit it. If it ever happens.

 

[FlyinGuy]

KP, I'll say it again. You have no clue how "flexability" works. I benefited when I was junior, and I benefited when I was senior. The more people that touch a trip before the trip starts, the better. The two biggest hits were the 9 day restrictions and the ELITT restrictions. Even with those, people still have the ability to improve their schedules.

 

[Kharma Police]

KP, I'll say it again. You have no clue how "flexability" works. I benefited when I was junior, and I benefited when I was senior. The more people that touch a trip before the trip starts, the better. The two biggest hits were the 9 day restrictions and the ELITT restrictions. Even with those, people still have the ability to improve their schedules.

Well, since you personally benifited from the program, I guess it's okay......

 

[shootr]

Everybody benefits from the program except those who fly their line and NEVER trade or Elitt. LC's are the grease that gets trips moving back and forth, eventually improving everybody's line (with the possible exception of reserves).

Tri, taking the LC program down to 9 CA days per lance was a gain from TA1 to TA2, which eliminated it. Codeshare protections were also a gain from 1 to 2. THOSE are the reasons the pay went down a little from TA1 to TA2. Definitely worth it, in my opinion. Esp. the section 1 stuff.

 

[Tripower455]

Tri, taking the LC program down to 9 CA days per lance was a gain from TA1 to TA2, which eliminated it.

So, not as much of a loss from what we had before is considered a "gain"? You'd be perfect for a SWApA position.

The fact is that Brink Cobb and Carl Kuwitzky hated the lance program (and anything else that might help out a junior guy, since it might jeopardize their ability to pick up on their days off) for decades prior to that "negotiation".

I'm sure that Brink lobbied extra hard to keep the Lance program in TA1.

Codeshare protections were also a gain from 1 to 2.

The CS protections were the only thing we gained in the current contract.

THOSE are the reasons the pay went down a little from TA1 to TA2. Definitely worth it, in my opinion. Esp. the section 1 stuff.

The sad thing is that we wouldn't have had to play the quid pro quo game had SWApA had a set to begin with.