SWA Lance Captains (seat swapping pilots)

[Kharma Police]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Then you have no clue about flexibility

 

[redflyer65]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

 

[outerlimits]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

Our check airman can I am guessing ur talking about something else

 

[gobyebye]

At swa, the top 3.2% FO's of each base can bid to be captain qualified. They still bid as FO's but can then pick up to 9 days worth of captain trips. I believe the original intent was to give swa flexibility to have captains available on short notice if the schedule called for it on a monthly basis.

 

[DCAA320]

At Chautauqua we would fly as FO but paid for CA.

 

[humveedriver]

Just curious if other airlines have, "switch hitter" pilots that can go from Captain to FO and vice versa from trip to trip. I personally think the program is kinda silly and only benefits a few pilots despite being told otherwise.

After the transition I bid my senior FO line and flew my trips Tu through Thur PM's. Focused on days off pay be damned. Picked up one charter in 2 years. Then I became a Lance and by default had to learn how the system works. You should notice that Lances are senior to the bottom reserve Captains. That's because it is better. You still get the days off and vacation time that you want. I never looked at Trip Trade Give Away (ever). That all changed. It forced me to see how trips are given away and picked through the 20 day bid adjustment (award to Elitt opening). A lance benefits by getting a better Captian trip at straight time than he/she could as a reserve (weekday). But that is what gets the ball rolling for the next twenty days as folks try to clear their boards to pick up open time. Especially important in the summer. Less senior FO's get the weekday FO trips that the Lances give away. Everyone benefits. During the slow months reserve blocks get picked up too. My only beef with the program is when I check a Lances board and they aren't flying any Capt trips. I try to hit my 9 days every month.

 

[Tripower455]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

Yup.......

FWIW, I haven't lanced in almost 15 years, and restricting the LCs in the last contract has killed a lot of flexibility. Especially when combined with the rest of the SWApA "gains" like Duties to Cover and Duty Count. The numerous SLs helped immensely too.

 

[Kharma Police]

Then you have no clue about flexibility

Let me see if I can figure out this "flexibility" thing that I'm missing out on. A more senior part time FO takes a line that I would've liked to have (which he has no intention of flying). He dumps his trash into open time so after I've done the work of getting my board cleared, I have to spend time and patiently wait by my computer for him to try and get rid of his stuff in hopes of adding the trip which I would've liked to have flown in the first place? Sounds like the program benefits only the Lance Captain who wants it both ways and his FO buddies that he leaves the trips to.

 

[Tripower455]

Let me see if I can figure out this "flexibility" thing that I'm missing out on. A more senior part time FO takes a line that I would've liked to have (which he has no intention of flying). He dumps his trash into open time so after I've done the work of getting my board cleared, I have to spend time and patiently wait by my computer for him to try and get rid of his stuff in hopes of adding the trip which I would've liked to have flown in the first place? Sounds like the program benefits only the Lance Captain who wants it both ways and his FO buddies that he leaves the trips to.

Well, the Captains that are giving away trips that they don't want also benefit by having another outlet to do so. For every Lance that bypasses a Capt slot, the guy junior to him gets it. Etc.

Unless the one line that you'd fly without modification (yeah, right) is always taken by a Lance, there is very little downside IMHO.

 

[Kharma Police]

Well, the Captains that are giving away trips that they don't want also benefit by having another outlet to do so. For every Lance that bypasses a Capt slot, the guy junior to him gets it. Etc.

Unless the one line that you'd fly without modification (yeah, right) is always taken by a Lance, there is very little downside IMHO.

The real issue is that we aren't allowed to drop trips.

 

[Tripower455]

The real issue is that we aren't allowed to drop trips.

Among many others.......


The ELITT restrictions are a lot of the problem too. This last TA really reduced the effectiveness of ELITT.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

SWABubba volunteered to sit right sit the other day to "help out". The only thing he helped out though was the Nathan's hot dog stand where he bought those 3 hot dogs with extra mustard.

 

[outerlimits]

At Chautauqua we would fly as FO but paid for CA.

How is that CRJ pay working out for you?

,,



Funny how you now look down at us now that your gone


Glad you feel your better than us .

 

[JT12345]

It was interesting how the senior CA's bitched about the Lance program before the last contract.

Contract passed and Lances are limited to only 9 duty periods as CA. The senior CA's started bitching immediately that their trips weren't being picked up. I wonder why? Sometimes folks are completely clueless to how the system works. Exhibit A folks.

The Lance program greases the wheels of flexibility. The senior CA's get there trips picked up, and I grab sweet turns from those Lances. Flexibility changes dramatically if it goes away. And it sounds like the union is going to let that happen. Hope they field the calls from the senior CA's when they are stuck with their trips.

Not sure in benefits the company. Sounds like it creates more havoc and costs. Sounds like it benefits the pilots tremendously.

 

[humveedriver]

Not sure in benefits the company. Sounds like it creates more havoc and costs. Sounds like it benefits the pilots tremendously.

Every former AirTran Captain was a Lance Captain by default (we were all Right seat qualified). The only difference was the Captains bid Captain lines and vacation. Then if they wanted to, they could pick up FO trips. But every Captain was right seat qualified. The Lance program at SWA just limits the number of pilots qualified to fly both seats. Get rid of the Lance program and you better believe you will see right seat dependent tasks in your next Captain check ride.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Just be quiet and help the company. Heck go pass out some peanuts like the jumpseater clown yesterday going to DAL. He was glad handing and hob-nobbing with the pax. Kid next to me asked why was the pilot handing out snacks? Oh I wanted to tell him what I really thought but kept quiet.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Every former AirTran Captain was a Lance Captain by default (we were all Right seat qualified). The only difference was the Captains bid Captain lines and vacation. Then if they wanted to, they could pick up FO trips. But every Captain was right seat qualified. The Lance program at SWA just limits the number of pilots qualified to fly both seats. Get rid of the Lance program and you better believe you will see right seat dependent tasks in your next Captain check ride.

I think you're mistaken here. No captain, other than a lance or a check airman, is allowed to fly from the right seat. The company wants to get rid of lances to further minimize the seat swapping allowed, because they believe it is a liability for them, especially from the standpoint that is the most junior captains trying to maintain currency in both seats.

If the company is successful in eliminating the lance program, there's no way they'd then allow a "reverse lance" program of having captains flying from the right seat. It would have the exact same liability they're trying to avoid now, plus they'd be paying two captain rates, instead of a captain and an F/O rate. I suspect you only see this at carriers with smaller total numbers of pilots, because they have no other choice for flexibility to man their schedules.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Wait. I thought SWApA wanted LC eliminated. The LC restrictions in this contract were touted as one of the many SWApA "gains" that our crack "negotiators" were able to wrest from the clutches of the company. No wonder the current " negotiations'" are taking so long. GK is still reeling from the shellacking we gave him last time!

 

[humveedriver]

I think you're mistaken here. No captain, other than a lance or a check airman, is allowed to fly from the right seat. The company wants to get rid of lances to further minimize the seat swapping allowed, because they believe it is a liability for them, especially from the standpoint that is the most junior captains trying to maintain currency in both seats.

If the company is successful in eliminating the lance program, there's no way they'd then allow a "reverse lance" program of having captains flying from the right seat. It would have the exact same liability they're trying to avoid now, plus they'd be paying two captain rates, instead of a captain and an F/O rate. I suspect you only see this at carriers with smaller total numbers of pilots, because they have no other choice for flexibility to man their schedules.

Bubba

You may be right. But I believe if the company is successful at getting rid of the lance program it will have unintended consequences. The result will be Captains who fly from the right seat. There is no liability issue. Both pilots are PIC qualified for the airplane. From a training standpoint, it's 5 minutes of slides and oral questions, right seat landing and "pulling" the alt gear extension cables. Voila. You are good to go. I understand under the current system only check airman and Lances can fly both seats. My point is, I think the company will jump on the two seats for the price of one flexibility, and claim the absence of the lance program was the result. As I see it, it's just economy of force.

I'm confused about your comment about smaller carriers? Seems like the same logic still applies at SWA, as the historically run lean on pilots and reserves. Evident by the high number of JA's this summer.