SWA Jumpseat?

[redflyer65]

Deleted. Answered already.

 

[Lear70]

One question that's semi-related for the SWA folks; it's been a yr or so since I last jumped on you (and every time it was out of SFO), and I recall that more often than not it went something like this with the gate agent:
Me: "Hi- I'm a pilot with Virgin America and would like to hitch a ride via our jumpseat agreement please. I have already called an listed myself".

Agent: "Okay- it looks pretty tight, but we'll call you near departure time (doesn't run me in CASS and gives me a slip that indicates 'cabin only')."

Me: "Well, if it's that tight-should you maybe run me in CASS..just in case?"

Agent: "We only do that if you'll be sitting in the cockpit"

--They are about to close the doors and haven't called me yet; so I query. Response: "(panicked/annoyed) Oh--you need to be in the cockpit; run down there!"
So I politely remind (same person) that they never ran me in CASS. They basically tell me that they may now go late because of this (as though it's my fault).
One common denominator is that in SFO it seemed to be the same guy like 90% of the time- dark hair, thin, goatee- I think his name may be Eric.

I guess my question is; Is this truly policy (not vetting a pilot in CASS if you'll be trying to give him an open seat 1st..& cockpit = last resort)? If so, I guess I don't understand it..it seems like it leads to an unnecessary panic & aggravation (on part of agent and jumpseater alike) more often than not.

BTW-- I need to say that all the crews have been great and most of the time the agents are very friendly--just this strange recurring thing about not running pilots in CASS when they should.

Thx

That station is a freaking MESS. Several of our stations have transitioned ground ops over to SWA, and most of them are pretty good (some are friendlier than others, but that's to be expected), but SFO has transitioned and it's a disaster.

Had to write an ASAP report the other day after the gate agent rushed to get us off the gate 10 minutes early, then the ground crew re-connected our steering bypass pin while the tow bar was still connected and canted off to the left about 70 degrees after COMPLETELY non-standard phraseology during a push, couldn't even understand the woman operating the tug, she mumbled and had a bad accent I couldn't identify (in large part because she was mumbling).

After the ensuing loud bang, heavy thud shaking the airplane, and hearing multiple yelling voices and curse words, we're asking them what happened, trying to make sure no one got hurt, they refused to answer, disconnected the headset without saying ANYTHING, not even "tow bar disconnected, bypass pin disengaged", no salute, no waveoff, just hopped on the tug and drove away.

Tried to call the station ops frequency to get someone to tell us what was going on, got some oriental girl who also could barely speak the English language, couldn't understand what we needed, CA is trying to get ahold of dispatch on his phone, finally a Supervisor shows up with a DECENT tug operator (English speaking citizen born in America that is clearly experienced in operating the tug, standard phraseology, etc), he tows us back into the gate after inspecting the nosewheel, and maintenance comes out. The supervisor then brings down 12 passengers who got left because of the early push rush from the gate agent, turns out nothing got damaged, and we left.

Never heard anything back after the ASAP, which is unusual for us. The system REQUIRES the company to post a response to EVERY ASAP submittal, but this one disappeared. I tried to follow up on it with the Chief Pilot a few weeks ago, he just shook his head and said "don't bother".

As a personal aside, from jumpseating every single week on SWA back and forth to MCO, the gate agents ALWAYS clear me in CASS. They often do this even if there's 30 open seats in the back. The SFO station is just... special.

 

[dicko]

The company can put a company pilot up front if needed (DH pilot


They can make a DH ride the jump seat?

Exactly what I was thinking. So, you could be DH in a cockpit Jumpseat for 5.5 hours, then operate a 5.5 hour leg ? For example: ATL-SEA-ATL in the winter.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Exactly what I was thinking. So, you could be DH in a cockpit Jumpseat for 5.5 hours, then operate a 5.5 hour leg ? For example: ATL-SEA-ATL in the winter.

Actually, no.

What the contract allows is for the company to put up to one DH'er in the cockpit, except in the case where the DH is over two hours (or a combination of DHs totalling over two hours) and you then have to fly afterwards. In that case, you're both entitled to a seat in the back.

In practice however, at least in my experience, the CSS & Ops people almost always issue you a boarding pass to sit in the back, regardless of DH length or booked capacity. Similarly, the majority of the time, DH pilots will offer to sit in the JS if the flight is full, or there's non-revs, etc. If the flight is short, sometimes you see both pilots agree to sit up front, or one on 4th, if available, to get another pilot or non-rev aboard. Or decline to sit both up front even for short, oversold flights, so that an OAL pilot can have the second cockpit JS when the plane would otherwise be full. Or any combination of the above to make it work. That also assumes the working pilot crew is okay with it, although I've never heard of them saying no.

Basically, the company wants to be able to put one pilot in the JS on DH's for short flights, but the reality is, that pilots are pretty smart, and try to help out, especially if it's a matter of getting a brother pilot on the plane as well, regardless of airline.

Make more sense?

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Actually, no.

What the contract allows is for the company to put up to one DH'er in the cockpit, except in the case where the DH is over two hours (or a combination of DHs totalling over two hours) and you then have to fly afterwards. In that case, you're both entitled to a seat in the back.

In practice however, at least in my experience, the CSS & Ops people almost always issue you a boarding pass to sit in the back, regardless of DH length or booked capacity. Similarly, the majority of the time, DH pilots will offer to sit in the JS if the flight is full, or there's non-revs, etc. If the flight is short, sometimes you see both pilots agree to sit up front, or one on 4th, if available, to get another pilot or non-rev aboard. Or decline to sit both up front even for short, oversold flights, so that an OAL pilot can have the second cockpit JS when the plane would otherwise be full. Or any combination of the above to make it work. That also assumes the working pilot crew is okay with it, although I've never heard of them saying no.

Basically, the company wants to be able to put one pilot in the JS on DH's for short flights, but the reality is, that pilots are pretty smart, and try to help out, especially if it's a matter of getting a brother pilot on the plane as well, regardless of airline.

Make more sense?

Bubba

Thanks for saving me some typing.... This is exactly how it works.....

 

[737tanker]

The only item that SWA Bubba left out is that the Side Letter for international flying added that no DH jumpseat if the flight is 5 hours or more. Right now that is basically flights like PVD-PHX. In the 18 years I've been at SWA I've never had a CSA tell me that I would be in the cockpit on a DH, most are planning on you being in the back.

 

[dicko]

Make more sense?

Bubba

Yup. Thanks.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

That station is a freaking MESS. Several of our stations have transitioned ground ops over to SWA, and most of them are pretty good (some are friendlier than others, but that's to be expected), but SFO has transitioned and it's a disaster.

Had to write an ASAP report the other day after the gate agent rushed to get us off the gate 10 minutes early, then the ground crew re-connected our steering bypass pin while the tow bar was still connected and canted off to the left about 70 degrees after COMPLETELY non-standard phraseology during a push, couldn't even understand the woman operating the tug, she mumbled and had a bad accent I couldn't identify (in large part because she was mumbling).

After the ensuing loud bang, heavy thud shaking the airplane, and hearing multiple yelling voices and curse words, we're asking them what happened, trying to make sure no one got hurt, they refused to answer, disconnected the headset without saying ANYTHING, not even "tow bar disconnected, bypass pin disengaged", no salute, no waveoff, just hopped on the tug and drove away.

Tried to call the station ops frequency to get someone to tell us what was going on, got some oriental girl who also could barely speak the English language, couldn't understand what we needed, CA is trying to get ahold of dispatch on his phone, finally a Supervisor shows up with a DECENT tug operator (English speaking citizen born in America that is clearly experienced in operating the tug, standard phraseology, etc), he tows us back into the gate after inspecting the nosewheel, and maintenance comes out. The supervisor then brings down 12 passengers who got left because of the early push rush from the gate agent, turns out nothing got damaged, and we left.

Never heard anything back after the ASAP, which is unusual for us. The system REQUIRES the company to post a response to EVERY ASAP submittal, but this one disappeared. I tried to follow up on it with the Chief Pilot a few weeks ago, he just shook his head and said "don't bother".

As a personal aside, from jumpseating every single week on SWA back and forth to MCO, the gate agents ALWAYS clear me in CASS. They often do this even if there's 30 open seats in the back. The SFO station is just... special.

Wow- that's crazy! That 1st push crew should be severely punished if not fired.
RE; jumpseating and not checking in CASS when they should- sounds like the problem is perhaps with SFO specifically. Thanks for info..

 

[orangebellyav8r]

.

The SWA pilot can take the F/A J/S to help you out if they're cool. The AAI pilots can't, even those of us rated on the plane. It's a long story why.

Good luck!

Very easy to answer and not a long story. AAI pilots don't work for SWA and SWA pilots don't work for AAI. So the F/A's jumpseat can not be used. Also if there is a F/A there they get it. Also if you say "those of us rated on the plane" try doing that on United or AA.

 

[Lear70]

Very easy to answer and not a long story. AAI pilots don't work for SWA and SWA pilots don't work for AAI. So the F/A's jumpseat can not be used. Also if there is a F/A there they get it. Also if you say "those of us rated on the plane" try doing that on United or AA.

No, that's NOT the whole story.

I wasn't going to get into it, but every time you guys twist the truth, we have to detail things out so that it doesn't get into everyone's head that what you're saying is correct.

AirTran and Southwest fly under ONE operating certificate. You can't ride the F/A jumpseat on United or AA because you're not under the same Ops Cert and the FAA WON'T LET YOU. They make an exception for the cockpit jumpseat because of commonality of oxygen masks, egress points, and have a briefing card in every cockpit to detail HOW to use those things and, most importantly, you aren't going to interfere with the emergency evacuation if you're in the flight deck. Those are FAA rules.

The reason AirTran pilots can't use the F/A jumpseat and, incidentally, the reason our AirTran flight attendants who have transitioned to Southwest can't sit on the F/A jumpseat on AirTran they JUST FREAKING WORKED ON, and vice versa, is because of SWAPA.

Russ McCrady sent out an eMail right after FAA Single Operating Certificate detailing a jumpseat policy that streamlined everyone's jumpseat privileges into the Southwest Airline policy. That means EQUAL jumpseat priority at the gate for all pilots, SWA and AirTran alike, as well as F/A jumpseat issues.

SWAPA flipped out, wrote a letter to Russ McCrady, and detailed that this was a violation of your contract, that only SWA pilots had priority, that AirTran pilots were not yet SWA pilots, and therefore would not be given the same priority.

Southwest management responded by rescinding ALL the jumpseat policies they had put in that memo, then re-sending a new memo that basically said nothing has changed except AirTran pilots come second after SWA pilots, then SWA dispatchers and other authorized personnel, the AirTran dispatchers and other personnel, etc., and that it was reversed but the same on AirTran planes.

I still have a copy of those memos and that's the way our FOM reads as well.

It's not an FAA issue, so don't drag other airlines into it. It's SWAPA saying "AirTran pilots aren't Southwest pilots, and it's our jumpseat". Did they have that right? Sure. Did it mess a bunch of other people up, including our F/A's who now all have to commute out of ATL? Yep.

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Once again. You have no idea what you are talking about. AAI pilots are not SWA pilots. Never have and never will be. It is not that hard to figure out. Your AAI FOM and SWA FOM are different. Please stop saying AAI are SWA pilots.

 

[Lear70]

Twisting things again? Come on, man! (ESPN voice).

I never said AAI pilots were SWA pilots. Find ONE place I said that.

The explanation I gave above is 100% accurate. I will bet you $1,000 that the above is EXACTLY what happened. I know because at the time I was still on the NC and was talking directly to SWA management at the time about it as it also violated our CBA but we were prepared to waive it in exchange for your commuter policy (which has since been tweaked in our favor anyway in our last LOA).

Don't turn this into what it isn't. I never said we were SWA pilots. I said the FAA recognized us as a Single Operating Certificate, thus it was completely legal, in answer to your distraction about UAL or AA F/A jumpseating. It was SWAPA that put the kibosh on it. Again, THEY HAD THAT RIGHT; I never said they didn't.

I challenge you to prove, in writing, from SWA management memo, any of the above to be inaccurate. You say I'm wrong? Prove it.

 

[freightdogfred]

Once again. You have no idea what you are talking about. AAI pilots are not SWA pilots. Never have and never will be. It is not that hard to figure out. Your AAI FOM and SWA FOM are different. Please stop saying AAI are SWA pilots.

Noted

Merry Xmas

 

[SWA Bubba]

Twisting things again? Come on, man! (ESPN voice).

I never said AAI pilots were SWA pilots. Find ONE place I said that.

The explanation I gave above is 100% accurate. I will bet you $1,000 that the above is EXACTLY what happened. I know because at the time I was still on the NC and was talking directly to SWA management at the time about it as it also violated our CBA but we were prepared to waive it in exchange for your commuter policy (which has since been tweaked in our favor anyway in our last LOA).

Don't turn this into what it isn't. I never said we were SWA pilots. I said the FAA recognized us as a Single Operating Certificate, thus it was completely legal, in answer to your distraction about UAL or AA F/A jumpseating. It was SWAPA that put the kibosh on it. Again, THEY HAD THAT RIGHT; I never said they didn't.

I challenge you to prove, in writing, from SWA management memo, any of the above to be inaccurate. You say I'm wrong? Prove it.

Not saying you're wrong Lear, and in fact I have no reason to doubt that those memos exist, but if it screwed anyone out of 4th, then that's the company's doing. Perhaps out of spite for SWAPA forcing a contract issue--I dunno all the details like you might. Our contract only deals with the flight deck JS, and I presume SWAPA enforced the contract solely to help Southwest pilots (their only constituents) commute. There's no reason the company couldn't have allowed SW pilots' priority on the flight deck (as our contract says) while opening up 4th to SW and AAI alike. SWAPA has no standing to contest what the company does with 4th.

Whether or not SWAPA should or could have allowed AirTran pilots equal priority to the flight deck is, of course, another discussion entirely, but screwing AirTran F/As out of 4th is squarely on the company.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

Not saying you're wrong Lear, and in fact I have no reason to doubt that those memos exist, but if it screwed anyone out of 4th, then that's the company's doing. Perhaps out of spite for SWAPA forcing a contract issue--I dunno all the details like you might. Our contract only deals with the flight deck JS, and I presume SWAPA enforced the contract solely to help Southwest pilots (their only constituents) commute. There's no reason the company couldn't have allowed SW pilots' priority on the flight deck (as our contract says) while opening up 4th to SW and AAI alike. SWAPA has no standing to contest what the company does with 4th.

Whether or not SWAPA should or could have allowed AirTran pilots equal priority to the flight deck is, of course, another discussion entirely, but screwing AirTran F/As out of 4th is squarely on the company.

Bubba

Yup. No argument whatsoever.

I understand SWAPA did what it did to protect its members: SWA pilots. The unfortunate consequence of the 4th is on SWA management. Never understood why they kept the two tied together, but that's just the way it went down.