Meister Brau
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SWA Is Smart...
- Thread starter qxeplt
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
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- 1,533
From an earlier post:
--------------------------------------------
I'm not saying that Southwest is putting United, Eastern, Braniff or anyone else out of business. I'm saying that the pilots at these low cost airlines like Jet Blue, Airtran and Southwest should strive for retirements and schedules that are more inline with what the majors have traditionally offered. If they don't then a new paradigm will have been created for pilots of the future where A and B Funds are a thing of the past. Southwest will not dry up and blow away if they start a retirement system for pilots.
--------------------------------------------
The new paradigm is on its way, and will not probably be stopped.
A-fund retirements are dinosaurs. If the pilots at the larger majors can hang on to this style of compensation package, more power to them. I don't think it's gonna last.
Also, the thought that anyone who already makes well over $100K deserves a full retirement on top of that is a little hard for me to accept. (Not that I wouldn't take it if offered). Very few professions offer this type of compensation. The piloting profession is, unfortunately, about to be kicked off it's lofty pedestal and brought into line with the majority of other high-pay high-skill jobs.
Know why it's so hard to make living for so long in this business?
Because everyone will work for practically nothing to get the 'brass ring'.
I know a lot of pilots who would be more than happy to work for a major for a little over $100K. I'd do it. Beats regional flying.
Some might say that's being a whore. If so, then they are simply a more expensive whore.
I'm tired of the way this industry works. I hope every airline winds up like Southwest. (No danger of that ever happening).
The glory days are probably over, and we are not going to be able to stop it from happening.
--------------------------------------------
I'm not saying that Southwest is putting United, Eastern, Braniff or anyone else out of business. I'm saying that the pilots at these low cost airlines like Jet Blue, Airtran and Southwest should strive for retirements and schedules that are more inline with what the majors have traditionally offered. If they don't then a new paradigm will have been created for pilots of the future where A and B Funds are a thing of the past. Southwest will not dry up and blow away if they start a retirement system for pilots.
--------------------------------------------
The new paradigm is on its way, and will not probably be stopped.
A-fund retirements are dinosaurs. If the pilots at the larger majors can hang on to this style of compensation package, more power to them. I don't think it's gonna last.
Also, the thought that anyone who already makes well over $100K deserves a full retirement on top of that is a little hard for me to accept. (Not that I wouldn't take it if offered). Very few professions offer this type of compensation. The piloting profession is, unfortunately, about to be kicked off it's lofty pedestal and brought into line with the majority of other high-pay high-skill jobs.
Know why it's so hard to make living for so long in this business?
Because everyone will work for practically nothing to get the 'brass ring'.
I know a lot of pilots who would be more than happy to work for a major for a little over $100K. I'd do it. Beats regional flying.
Some might say that's being a whore. If so, then they are simply a more expensive whore.
I'm tired of the way this industry works. I hope every airline winds up like Southwest. (No danger of that ever happening).
The glory days are probably over, and we are not going to be able to stop it from happening.
Shagadelic- I agree with you, we dont leave anyone at the gate, when are the guys at united delta and american going to get off the pot and give us the same courtesy we give them. Out of phx last week going to lax 4 united and 2 delta jumpseaters which im glad to do but it really tends to piss you off when you do that for them, then later when youre trying to get home from oak offline, no im sorry we can only take one or two offline jumpseaters. Maybe we should give them the same courtesy they give us, that might get them motivated to change there rules when they cant get home or to work. Not everyone offline jumpseats but when SWA is there you know you will get home if the plane isnt full, whereas the other carriers you dont know until youre pushed
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
That didn't take long.
Like moth to a flame.
Did I say I wanted the profession to diminish? No.
Is it going to? I hope not, but fear that it will.
Am I socialist? Nope. I'm more right wing than you could ever imagine.
You contradict yourself. If I was socialist, I would not be in favor of competition. You want everyone to get in line to 'protect theprofession'.
Do you buy all of your products from stores that promote union labor? Didn't think so. Why aren't you protecting theirs?
I'm sorry that your ability to defend yourself is limited to name calling and profanity.
Also, $100K WOULD allow me to give my family 'the best'.
That would be a very lofty goal for me. I come from a very humble financial position. I guess that only the elite should be airline pilots because they 'know what they are worth'.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay. Period.
I'm sorry that you need so much more to be happy. If you can get more, go ahead. I hope you get $500K, if that's what you need.
I'm sorry that free markets and competition are ruining your life.
Here's an observation, though: Even if tomorrow you were placed at the #1 seniority slot at the major of your choice with a 50% pay raise, within a year you would probably be complaining.
such is the nature of many in this profession. Thank you for proving my point.
Why the vitriol? I am currently in no position to affect this situation in any way. Just an opinion. Sticks and stones. Who the he!! am I to you anyway. If it is not at least partially tue, why the reaction?
BTW: I've seen your posts before - are you sure that this just isn't flamebait?
Best of luck - your right wing socialist pal
Like moth to a flame.
Did I say I wanted the profession to diminish? No.
Is it going to? I hope not, but fear that it will.
Am I socialist? Nope. I'm more right wing than you could ever imagine.
You contradict yourself. If I was socialist, I would not be in favor of competition. You want everyone to get in line to 'protect theprofession'.
Do you buy all of your products from stores that promote union labor? Didn't think so. Why aren't you protecting theirs?
I'm sorry that your ability to defend yourself is limited to name calling and profanity.
Also, $100K WOULD allow me to give my family 'the best'.
That would be a very lofty goal for me. I come from a very humble financial position. I guess that only the elite should be airline pilots because they 'know what they are worth'.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay. Period.
I'm sorry that you need so much more to be happy. If you can get more, go ahead. I hope you get $500K, if that's what you need.
I'm sorry that free markets and competition are ruining your life.
Here's an observation, though: Even if tomorrow you were placed at the #1 seniority slot at the major of your choice with a 50% pay raise, within a year you would probably be complaining.
such is the nature of many in this profession. Thank you for proving my point.
Why the vitriol? I am currently in no position to affect this situation in any way. Just an opinion. Sticks and stones. Who the he!! am I to you anyway. If it is not at least partially tue, why the reaction?
BTW: I've seen your posts before - are you sure that this just isn't flamebait?
Best of luck - your right wing socialist pal
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I was wrong you guys don't deserve a retirement. My parents live in a retirement community in Las Vegas. My mother says there is a big difference in retiree’s attitudes about money that have income streams and those who live off 401ks. She says the people with income streams have a much healthier outlook when it comes to enjoying spending money. They know that if the blow some money on whatever that next month there will be another check in the account. On the other hand the retirees with 401ks have a harder time enjoying themselves because they are never sure if their money will last. Just food for thought. I'll be enjoying my A fund retirement, my B fund retirement and my 401k, while you guys watch CNBC and cross your fingers. I think airline stocks are about to come back into favor, not.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
ivauir
SNIKT!
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2002
- Posts
- 1,476
If you don't like how the pilots at SWA are paid, don't work there. They don't need to "get on board" and do things your way, you and your company are going to have to figure out how to compete. I hope every airline survives this and prospers, especially one as storied and classy as United is (was in it day). But I find it perfectly reasonable to have my success tied to my company's success while I work there but for my retirement pay to be in MY "lock box", not the CEOs. Ask an Enron retiree how great an "income stream" can be.
Honestly, I hope all of the carriers make it and lots of pilots get rich. But it is pretty silly to demand that a company that is profitable emulate those that are faltering. I plan on getting rich (at least by my definition), for that to happen SWA needs to make money - to me THAT is the American way - work hard, take a risk, get paid.
Fly Safe
Honestly, I hope all of the carriers make it and lots of pilots get rich. But it is pretty silly to demand that a company that is profitable emulate those that are faltering. I plan on getting rich (at least by my definition), for that to happen SWA needs to make money - to me THAT is the American way - work hard, take a risk, get paid.
Fly Safe
qxeplt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 199
Speaking of pensions...Take a look.
I'm with Ivauir, I want it in my bank account, not in them crummy CEOs to make bad investments with.
Reuters
US Airlines Pension Gaps Seen Wider -Fitch
Monday January 13, 1:58 pm ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Pension funding gaps at the largest U.S. airlines jumped 50 percent in a year to more than $18 billion by the end of 2002, raising concerns of financial fallout for the battered industry, rating agency Fitch said on Monday.
ADVERTISEMENT
Airlines, and other major U.S. corporations like General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - News) and Ford Motor Co. (NYSE:F - News), have announced huge pension costs because years of U.S. stock market weakness has forced them to cut estimated returns on invested assets.
The combination of lower returns and new obligations has pushed the funding gap on a projected benefit obligation basis to $18.85 billion at the end of 2002 from $12.1 billion a year earlier for the largest U.S. airlines, Fitch estimated.
Growing pension gaps for the airlines, led by a $4.4 billion underfunding at Delta Air Lines (NYSE DAL - News), could complicate restructurings for airlines in bankruptcy and hurt the credit quality of the others, Fitch said.
"The airline sector's pension problem is perhaps the most dire in corporate America," Fitch airline analyst William Warlick said in the report. "The combination of substantial funding shortfalls and very poor operating performance endangers almost every company in this sector (at least those high-cost majors that have a defined benefit pension plan)."
Low-cost carriers Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News), AirTran Airways (NYSE:AAI - News), ATA Holdings Inc. (NasdaqNM:ATAH - News), JetBlue Airways (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News) and Frontier Airlines (NasdaqNM:FRNT - News) do not have defined benefit plans, giving then an edge over larger rivals, Fitch noted.
"These growing obligations will inevitably lead to large increases in required cash contributions to pension plans, compounding the financial stress and cash flow concerns that already exist in the industry," he said.
Other analysts also believe cash flow is more important than actual dollar pension gaps, though shortfalls will become more important if stock market losses extend over the next few years. Pension obligations industrywide were overfunded as late as 1999 because of several years of economic expansion.
The increased burden of funding pensions may complicate the restructurings at United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - News) and US Airways Group Inc. (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - News), which both declared bankruptcy in 2002, Fitch said. US Airways hopes to emerge from bankruptcy within months, while United plans an 18-month restructuring.
Fitch estimated United's pension underfunding at $4.1 billion, followed by American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (NYSE:AMR - News) at about $3.3 billion, Northwest Airlines Corp. (NasdaqNM:NWAC - News) at $3.2 billion and US Airways at $3.0 billion.
"This is an industrywide problem," American Airlines spokeswoman Andrea Rader said. "We are paying close attention to it and are confident we are meeting all our obligations."
Most major U.S. airlines have announced plans to take year-end noncash pension-related charges.
In regulatory filings, United said it expected a charge of more than $1.5 billion, Delta of $700 million to $800 million and Northwest said its charge could exceed $700 million. American's noncash charge is expected to be about $1 billion.
Northwest has sought to spread some pension contributions over a longer period and asked the U.S. Department of Labor for permission to use the common stock of its Pinnacle Airlines Inc. regional airline unit partly to fund its pension plans.
I'm with Ivauir, I want it in my bank account, not in them crummy CEOs to make bad investments with.
Reuters
US Airlines Pension Gaps Seen Wider -Fitch
Monday January 13, 1:58 pm ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Pension funding gaps at the largest U.S. airlines jumped 50 percent in a year to more than $18 billion by the end of 2002, raising concerns of financial fallout for the battered industry, rating agency Fitch said on Monday.
ADVERTISEMENT
Airlines, and other major U.S. corporations like General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - News) and Ford Motor Co. (NYSE:F - News), have announced huge pension costs because years of U.S. stock market weakness has forced them to cut estimated returns on invested assets.
The combination of lower returns and new obligations has pushed the funding gap on a projected benefit obligation basis to $18.85 billion at the end of 2002 from $12.1 billion a year earlier for the largest U.S. airlines, Fitch estimated.
Growing pension gaps for the airlines, led by a $4.4 billion underfunding at Delta Air Lines (NYSE DAL - News), could complicate restructurings for airlines in bankruptcy and hurt the credit quality of the others, Fitch said.
"The airline sector's pension problem is perhaps the most dire in corporate America," Fitch airline analyst William Warlick said in the report. "The combination of substantial funding shortfalls and very poor operating performance endangers almost every company in this sector (at least those high-cost majors that have a defined benefit pension plan)."
Low-cost carriers Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News), AirTran Airways (NYSE:AAI - News), ATA Holdings Inc. (NasdaqNM:ATAH - News), JetBlue Airways (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News) and Frontier Airlines (NasdaqNM:FRNT - News) do not have defined benefit plans, giving then an edge over larger rivals, Fitch noted.
"These growing obligations will inevitably lead to large increases in required cash contributions to pension plans, compounding the financial stress and cash flow concerns that already exist in the industry," he said.
Other analysts also believe cash flow is more important than actual dollar pension gaps, though shortfalls will become more important if stock market losses extend over the next few years. Pension obligations industrywide were overfunded as late as 1999 because of several years of economic expansion.
The increased burden of funding pensions may complicate the restructurings at United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - News) and US Airways Group Inc. (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - News), which both declared bankruptcy in 2002, Fitch said. US Airways hopes to emerge from bankruptcy within months, while United plans an 18-month restructuring.
Fitch estimated United's pension underfunding at $4.1 billion, followed by American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (NYSE:AMR - News) at about $3.3 billion, Northwest Airlines Corp. (NasdaqNM:NWAC - News) at $3.2 billion and US Airways at $3.0 billion.
"This is an industrywide problem," American Airlines spokeswoman Andrea Rader said. "We are paying close attention to it and are confident we are meeting all our obligations."
Most major U.S. airlines have announced plans to take year-end noncash pension-related charges.
In regulatory filings, United said it expected a charge of more than $1.5 billion, Delta of $700 million to $800 million and Northwest said its charge could exceed $700 million. American's noncash charge is expected to be about $1 billion.
Northwest has sought to spread some pension contributions over a longer period and asked the U.S. Department of Labor for permission to use the common stock of its Pinnacle Airlines Inc. regional airline unit partly to fund its pension plans.
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canyonblue
Everyone loves Southwest
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,314
UGApilotDAWG
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2002
- Posts
- 87
Slug
SWA Line Swine
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Posts
- 496
Second to that
Q,
I'll second that. Oak's Av scares the begeezus out of me everytime I see it. It is a shame beer is inadvertently wasted like that.
On another note:
Asst CP called with the official call yesterday. Great guy. Said with some certainty that there will be another Feb class, but said they had to look at all the factors before making the final call.....said the same for classes after Feb too.
Q,
I'll second that. Oak's Av scares the begeezus out of me everytime I see it. It is a shame beer is inadvertently wasted like that.
On another note:
Asst CP called with the official call yesterday. Great guy. Said with some certainty that there will be another Feb class, but said they had to look at all the factors before making the final call.....said the same for classes after Feb too.
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Congrats Slug!!!!
And a hearty "Second!" on remarks re avatars of QXE (absolutely the coolest avatar on the board, by a long shot), and OAK (what are you THINKIN, man?!?!?)!
Best wishes to all the poolies -- may your day of good news be quickly approaching, with increasing momentum!
Snoopy
And a hearty "Second!" on remarks re avatars of QXE (absolutely the coolest avatar on the board, by a long shot), and OAK (what are you THINKIN, man?!?!?)!
Best wishes to all the poolies -- may your day of good news be quickly approaching, with increasing momentum!
Snoopy
CAL to T-1A
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2001
- Posts
- 64
SWA/FO
5 Star Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,520
Just reading all the posts.....
Offline guys sure love jumpseating on us - thats a fact. Best frequency/ontime arrivals in the industry.
Overall, SWA Pilots are happy with what we got going... Things are always getting better. We have the quickest upgrade in the industry (Majors- yes, SWA is a Major Airline). We don't have to wait for someone to retire/die to upgrade like most folks do at other airlines... because we are growing all the time.
A lot of guy retire early here. 401K, A Plan, B Plan who gives a crap as long as you have enough when its all said and done.
I personally, would not be happy going to work flying all night and then trying to get back onto a day schedule like the rest of the World. I've seen FedEx guys in their 40's that look like they are in their 60's. I would not like to have everyother landing in DTW, ATL, MSP, DFW, ORD, DEN etc..
I'm happy where I am at. I do think some of my friends are crazy not to consider a career with Southwest. (We are talking < then a year at other carriers and now furloughed.) Laughing at me? My one buddy does not wish to give up his seniority number at US Airways (hired 2000). I guess we always need real estate professionals.
I think = Delta, Northwest, Jet Blue, Airtran & Southwest Airlines will make it through this mess. I think UAL and US Airways are done. Not sure about AMR... although they seem to be moving faster then UAL in making changes.
Now be nice to me.
Offline guys sure love jumpseating on us - thats a fact. Best frequency/ontime arrivals in the industry.
Overall, SWA Pilots are happy with what we got going... Things are always getting better. We have the quickest upgrade in the industry (Majors- yes, SWA is a Major Airline). We don't have to wait for someone to retire/die to upgrade like most folks do at other airlines... because we are growing all the time.
A lot of guy retire early here. 401K, A Plan, B Plan who gives a crap as long as you have enough when its all said and done.
I personally, would not be happy going to work flying all night and then trying to get back onto a day schedule like the rest of the World. I've seen FedEx guys in their 40's that look like they are in their 60's. I would not like to have everyother landing in DTW, ATL, MSP, DFW, ORD, DEN etc..
I'm happy where I am at. I do think some of my friends are crazy not to consider a career with Southwest. (We are talking < then a year at other carriers and now furloughed.) Laughing at me? My one buddy does not wish to give up his seniority number at US Airways (hired 2000). I guess we always need real estate professionals.
I think = Delta, Northwest, Jet Blue, Airtran & Southwest Airlines will make it through this mess. I think UAL and US Airways are done. Not sure about AMR... although they seem to be moving faster then UAL in making changes.
Now be nice to me.
kwijybo
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2002
- Posts
- 32
Piling on
I just want to pile on and say that SWA has always been the best in giving offline guys (me) a seat. You guys got me home during the Christmas rush and I will always have a spot on my airplane for a LUV pilot.
In this day and age of majors in dire straits, it is amazing how many major pilots look down their noses at me, an ahem, LCC guy, when I need a ride (very occasionally). Instead of just being friendly and giving the old 'Welcome aboard'. Nothing overt, but it is there, and it gets old real fast.
I just want to pile on and say that SWA has always been the best in giving offline guys (me) a seat. You guys got me home during the Christmas rush and I will always have a spot on my airplane for a LUV pilot.
In this day and age of majors in dire straits, it is amazing how many major pilots look down their noses at me, an ahem, LCC guy, when I need a ride (very occasionally). Instead of just being friendly and giving the old 'Welcome aboard'. Nothing overt, but it is there, and it gets old real fast.
qxeplt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 199
My Avatar
Oak,
I will be happy to pass my avatar on to you (please take it, I insist. I can't stand to lose another drop of beer looking at yours.) or anyone else in the pool, as I will be drying off real soon and will no longer need it. It will have been 460 day under water, you will need something unless you grew gills.
Oak,
I will be happy to pass my avatar on to you (please take it, I insist. I can't stand to lose another drop of beer looking at yours.) or anyone else in the pool, as I will be drying off real soon and will no longer need it. It will have been 460 day under water, you will need something unless you grew gills.
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