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SWA is in position to dominate ATL

Music

Member
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Oct 21, 2003
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108
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From 290 at 12,000 feet downwind mid-field? (that's pretty typical in ATL). Yeah, you gotta slow, seeing as you also need to be below 250 by 10,000 and still keep descending.

Trying to slow from 290 to 250 AND descend from 12,000 to 6,000 with just the gear and speed brakes out to make the base leg just abeam the FAF by 6,000 (where they'll further clear you to 4,000 and ask you if you have the airport on a short approach day) isn't *QUITE* doable if you're at 290 abeam the field clean. We've tried it.

It *IS* doable if you're already at 250 abeam the field OR if you have a little more distance to descend before they turn you base. 270 kts level at 12,000 abeam midfield might work, but I haven't tried it yet. Most of us hate dropping the gear that high and that fast, it's noisy as crap, scares the bejeezus out of the F/A's, and makes them irritable seeing as we usually double-chime them for landing BEFORE putting the gear down (which signals them they have about 2-3 minutes before touchdown). Not to mention, if ATL changes their mind, you're dragging the gear around the pattern 10-15-20 miles extended downwind. (see above comment about having tried it).

That's what the V/B technique is for. Used in conjunction with good pilotage and you can execute that visual approach (or any for that matter) with minimal effort.
 

Lear70

JAFFO
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That's what the V/B technique is for. Used in conjunction with good pilotage and you can execute that visual approach (or any for that matter) with minimal effort.
I use Vert Bearing all the time, I agree it works great, just saying that getting from 290 clean at 12,000 midfield abeam the airport downwind to 6,000 feet and 210 abeam the FAF requires some quick hustling. Not impossible, just easier using the flaps and speedbrakes together, which is going to go away.

Typically we bring the spoilers out, hold altitude until the speed is under 250, go straight to Flaps 5 and stay at 245 flaps 5 and speed brakes out all the way down.

The only way it's going to happen at SWA is to do that in conjunction with the gear (used to do it on the 727 "I'll trade you spoilers for flaps on speed"), and I'm not sure you guys are allowed to go to Flaps 5 at 245 kts? When ATC asks for 250 in the descent still going downwind, you can cheat 245 to get the flaps out and no one will notice. Slowing to 230 or less, the guy behind you is going to come screaming up your tailpipe...

Like I said, it will be interesting seeing how SWA adapts to the ATL traffic flow... or finds a way to make their procedures work with the ATL ATC folk. Not interesting in a bad way, just kind of curious to see how they'll make it work.
 

Music

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2003
Posts
108
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9000
I use Vert Bearing all the time, I agree it works great, just saying that getting from 290 clean at 12,000 midfield abeam the airport downwind to 6,000 feet and 210 abeam the FAF requires some quick hustling. Not impossible, just easier using the flaps and speedbrakes together, which is going to go away.

Typically we bring the spoilers out, hold altitude until the speed is under 250, go straight to Flaps 5 and stay at 245 flaps 5 and speed brakes out all the way down.

The only way it's going to happen at SWA is to do that in conjunction with the gear (used to do it on the 727 "I'll trade you spoilers for flaps on speed"), and I'm not sure you guys are allowed to go to Flaps 5 at 245 kts? When ATC asks for 250 in the descent still going downwind, you can cheat 245 to get the flaps out and no one will notice. Slowing to 230 or less, the guy behind you is going to come screaming up your tailpipe...

Like I said, it will be interesting seeing how SWA adapts to the ATL traffic flow... or finds a way to make their procedures work with the ATL ATC folk. Not interesting in a bad way, just kind of curious to see how they'll make it work.

I've been operating deliberately without Speedbrakes and flaps for some time now testing these scenarios. Yes you do have to use the gear when doing a slam dunk from the downwind in ATL (or anywhere else for that matter). What I've found is that the same VB values work with or without flaps & Speedbrakes. Any turn prior to 8 (in a no wind situation) and forget about being stabilized. This was true before and is true now with SWA limitations applied. Add a tailwind on base or final and then 8 won't even work. Can't speak to the 3 or 500 of course, but it's working consistently in the 700.
 

GuppyWN

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Typically we bring the spoilers out, hold altitude until the speed is under 250, go straight to Flaps 5 and stay at 245 flaps 5 and speed brakes out all the way down.

You're dangerous!

Gup
 

RLAblows

like a man possessed
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
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238
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Typically we bring the spoilers out, hold altitude until the speed is under 250, go straight to Flaps 5 and stay at 245 flaps 5 and speed brakes out all the way down.

gutsiest move I ever saw man
 

miles otoole

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May 7, 2004
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I use Vert Bearing all the time, I agree it works great, just saying that getting from 290 clean at 12,000 midfield abeam the airport downwind to 6,000 feet and 210 abeam the FAF requires some quick hustling. Not impossible, just easier using the flaps and speedbrakes together, which is going to go away.

Typically we bring the spoilers out, hold altitude until the speed is under 250, go straight to Flaps 5 and stay at 245 flaps 5 and speed brakes out all the way down.

The only way it's going to happen at SWA is to do that in conjunction with the gear (used to do it on the 727 "I'll trade you spoilers for flaps on speed"), and I'm not sure you guys are allowed to go to Flaps 5 at 245 kts? When ATC asks for 250 in the descent still going downwind, you can cheat 245 to get the flaps out and no one will notice. Slowing to 230 or less, the guy behind you is going to come screaming up your tailpipe...

Like I said, it will be interesting seeing how SWA adapts to the ATL traffic flow... or finds a way to make their procedures work with the ATL ATC folk. Not interesting in a bad way, just kind of curious to see how they'll make it work.

Wheeeeeeee......look at me , I can fly............. :)
 

carl p

Reformed Freight Dog
Joined
May 17, 2008
Posts
324
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Ty - Believe it or not, I actually agree with you that a lot of SWA guys on here don't seem to understand the discussion of "windfall" as it pertains to A/M and B/M. The law states that no party will receive a "windfall" at another party's expense - AAI guys falling under our contract and reaping the benefits of such, although maybe a windfall, doesn't come out our expense.

However - comma - we are talking about seniority, and by its very definition, seniority (and exercising it) will always come at someone's expense. So when considering how to mesh two groups that have such disparate career paths and expectations, we at SWA expect that those differing career expectations, that include more than just the seat you sit in, should be used to make the determination of "fair and equitable". I'm not saying that anyone should or will take your seat away from you. However, expecting that your seniority on a combined list at this more mature carrier (with all that entails, including pay and job security) should disregard our longevity at SWA would be not fair nor equitable, especially when the airline industry operates under a tenure based seniority system.

In summation, although I'm not so much concerned with whether or not you keep the seats that you bring to the combined list, I am highly concerned that your system seniority on that list not disregard my longevity and the disparate nature of our respective careers. To do so would be a windfall at my expense.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody


PW,

This is one of the most professional, well articulated posts I've seen from either side regarding this subject.
 

Lear70

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You don't have time to think up there... you think... you're dead.

;)

Interesting stuff, Music. There's only one or two CA's who are willing to even experiment with it right now, but will keep an eye on that the next time I get to fly with them.
 
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