SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[Full of LUV]

Lear, please don't take this the wrong way. Believe me, I don't want to merge with you. I want my company to grow organically and not by taking over your airline. I would rather continue to compete directly with you and eventually to put you out of business.

This is where you are misguided, you assume that you can have significantly higher costs, yet compete as an LCC and win against all. This is the arrogance that will sink your SLI. Obviously if it was as easy to grow organically on the east coast, ATL, and internationally, then GK would have pursued it, but YOUR mgt has decided that this is the less costly and risky route, and it may have not turned up roses your way either. So laying your guilt upon the AAI gang is not exactly fair as they could assert the same saying with their far suprerior operating costs, they were looking to squeeze SWA out of many of their markets or at least make them bleed to maintain what they have.
LUV

 

[Formula 1]

This is where you are misguided, you assume that you can have significantly higher costs, yet compete as an LCC and win against all. This is the arrogance that will sink your SLI. Obviously if it was as easy to grow organically on the east coast, ATL, and internationally, then GK would have pursued it, but YOUR mgt has decided that this is the less costly and risky route, and it may have not turned up roses your way either. So laying your guilt upon the AAI gang is not exactly fair as they could assert the same saying with their far suprerior operating costs, they were looking to squeeze SWA out of many of their markets or at least make them bleed to maintain what they have.
LUV

How are my feelings misguided Obwan? This truly how I feel.

Answer these questions since you know me better than I know myself:

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

 

[Full of LUV]

Feelings....

How are my feelings misguided Obwan? This truly how I feel.

Answer these questions since you know me better than I know myself:

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

My point had nothing to do with your FEELINGS... more just some facts.

AAI's costs are considerably lower than yours for many reasons including the one's you've just listed above.

Your assumption that you could obtain this kind of growth organically may be what is false and in fact without this merger, you may have stagnated for years or even began to shrink in the face of other LCC competition in your key markets.

Your mgmt has concluded that buying the competition out not only gives them immediate growth (granted not growth that benefits you so much, but helps mgmt compete) with less risk and expense than organically.

Welcome to the major airline biz!

 

[Lear70]

Airline Pilot Central has tried to convert our trip pay system to an hour system. What it fails to correct for is the ability for us to earn more than a 100 trips a month. You can easily fly around a 120 trips a month here with out much effort and still have quality of life.

With 16+ days off a month? I doubt it. Probably closer to 12-14. I have several friends there, and the dollar amounts you're talking about are creative dropping and picking up of premium time to keep 15+ days off or foregoing days off for pay. I would certainly do the first, but when the premium pay goes away, you wouldn't find me doing the second. My time at home is more important than money.

Lear, please don't take this the wrong way. Believe me, I don't want to merge with you. I want my company to grow organically and not by taking over your airline. I would rather continue to compete directly with you and eventually to put you out of business.

You had me up until that last line. After that, pretty much anyone who understands airline financials disregarded everything you'd said before that and most of what you said after. Why? Because your last statement is farcical and flies in the face of the established fact of our profitability. Nice try, though. Subject dismissed. Next...

So what does your Pilot Group bring to the table that is Fair and Equitable to the Southwest Pilot Group?

Pay?
Vacation?
Sick Leave?
Retirement?
Medical?
Line Improvement Trip Trade?
More days off?
Quality of Life?
Job Security?
Commuter Policy?

Any of these?

Fair and Equitable has ZERO to do with most of the above. If you knew the FIRST THING about a SLI negotiation, you'd understand that. Of course, if you knew the first thing about a SLI negotiation, you probably wouldn't have posted such nonsense in the first place.

You're making a financial argument in a non-financial discussion. Seniority has NOTHING to do with money. Period. The end. Sorry you don't like it, but that's just the way life is. Argument dismissed. Next.

Job security? Yes, we bring that, by offering new growth opportunities Southwest didn't have before. Your CEO came right out and said it. End of discussion. Buh-bye.

Last time I checked, your pilot group vote a 98% majority to strike and to risk not having a job. That means you choose not have any future career expectations as an AirTran Pilot.

No, we didn't choose NOT to have a future. We chose to call Management's bluff. They would have had no choice but to negotiate with us during a strike. No one closes the doors on a $100+ Million a year company for raises that equate to $20 Million a year.

As I've said... them's the facts. Not going to argue about them. Not going to debate them. Just educating anyone who's interested in learning the truth. Your own MEC will be doing the same thing shortly enough... The fact of the matter is, in an arbitration, in all likelihood, this will go pretty much relative seniority unless our merger committees come up with something our pilots will buy off on. Hint: it's not a stapler, or anything even approximating such.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to be employed, and while my job is a great career, but it's not my life. I'll tell my Merger Committee what I believe is fair and won't back off on it, but whatever happens here, I'll still come to work with a smile on my face, do my thing, and go home. Most pilots worth their salt do the same... Happy to have a beer with you when this thing is all said and done and, if I end up junior to you or right seat, I'll sling the gear with a smile. Life's too short to be (or stay) P.O.'d about something I have no control over.

 

[Formula 1]

My point had nothing to do with your FEELINGS... more just some facts.

AAI's costs are considerably lower than yours for many reasons including the one's you've just listed above.

Your assumption that you could obtain this kind of growth organically may be what is false and in fact without this merger, you may have stagnated for years or even began to shrink in the face of other LCC competition in your key markets.

Your mgmt has concluded that buying the competition out not only gives them immediate growth (granted not growth that benefits you so much, but helps mgmt compete) with less risk and expense than organically.

Welcome to the major airline biz!

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

 

[Formula 1]

With 16+ days off a month? I doubt it. Probably closer to 12-14. I have several friends there, and the dollar amounts you're talking about are creative dropping and picking up of premium time to keep 15+ days off or foregoing days off for pay. I would certainly do the first, but when the premium pay goes away, you wouldn't find me doing the second. My time at home is more important than money.


You had me up until that last line. After that, pretty much anyone who understands airline financials disregarded everything you'd said before that and most of what you said after. Why? Because your last statement is farcical and flies in the face of the established fact of our profitability. Nice try, though. Subject dismissed. Next...


Fair and Equitable has ZERO to do with most of the above. If you knew the FIRST THING about a SLI negotiation, you'd understand that. Of course, if you knew the first thing about a SLI negotiation, you probably wouldn't have posted such nonsense in the first place.

You're making a financial argument in a non-financial discussion. Seniority has NOTHING to do with money. Period. The end. Sorry you don't like it, but that's just the way life is. Argument dismissed. Next.

Job security? Yes, we bring that, by offering new growth opportunities Southwest didn't have before. Your CEO came right out and said it. End of discussion. Buh-bye.


No, we didn't choose NOT to have a future. We chose to call Management's bluff. They would have had no choice but to negotiate with us during a strike. No one closes the doors on a $100+ Million a year company for raises that equate to $20 Million a year.

As I've said... them's the facts. Not going to argue about them. Not going to debate them. Just educating anyone who's interested in learning the truth. Your own MEC will be doing the same thing shortly enough... The fact of the matter is, in an arbitration, in all likelihood, this will go pretty much relative seniority unless our merger committees come up with something our pilots will buy off on. Hint: it's not a stapler, or anything even approximating such.

At the end of the day, I'm happy to be employed, and while my job is a great career, but it's not my life. I'll tell my Merger Committee what I believe is fair and won't back off on it, but whatever happens here, I'll still come to work with a smile on my face, do my thing, and go home. Most pilots worth their salt do the same... Happy to have a beer with you when this thing is all said and done and, if I end up junior to you or right seat, I'll sling the gear with a smile. Life's too short to be (or stay) P.O.'d about something I have no control over.

Lear,

Thank you dis-missing the facts and avoiding the questions directed towards you.

cheers!:beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Every airline with a seniority list would rather grow organically~~ but unlike Denver I don't see how we could have done it in ATL-
But AT was seeing crazy low fares from Delta too as they wield their network-
Without this acquisition both companies would have been bleeding each other while the legacies were doing their best to do that also-
The question then becomes~ what puts our pilot group in the best position?
I think this acquisition is better than all the blood-letting- I don't necessarily understand anyone on either side that doesn't see that

 

[Lear70]

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

What's the matter? Worried about facts getting in the way of the emotional argument for a SLI?

(I know it's tough to convey friendly banter on a message board, but I do enjoy a good debate as long as people don't go on personal attacks).

 

[Full of LUV]

I don't disagree with your personnel thoughts here. I rather agree with all of it. I think this will be very good for Southwest.

But, in my previous post, you choose to attack a personnel statement to Lear as being non-factual. Are you a New York Times Fact Checker?

Formula,
I wasn't responding to Lear's facts, I got lost in the numbers since it's all notional anyway.
I disagreed with the premise that SWA could grow organically and run AAI out of business. I think the mgmt of both saw impending overlap as they tried to expand in the future and the result would have been stunted futures for both until some event caused a shift the force.

Like most other pilots, I like the fact that one more lower paying pilot job is being eliminated as it just leads to the downward pressure of all pilot contracts. I hope they figure out an SLI, but it will be arbitrated and so most of all I hope that the SWA group negotiates something out of all this for themselves in the form of a pay bump for allowing 800's and facilitating the merger.

BTW, I love that avatar, is it a glider? The yellow just makes the thing pop.

 

[Ty Webb]

According to Airline Pilot Central's data, a Southwest 7th year FO earns the same as AirTran 7 year CA of $137 an hour.

Yeah, based upon our 2001 contract. If you want to know where AirTran CA pay will be at the time this merger happens, look at Alaska's rates, not our 2001 rates.

Also, the "average" AirTran CA doesn't earn $120K, where did you get that from? :laugh:

We don't use "trip for pay" but we have quite a bit of "soft time". 85 hrs credit is the norm, and that's only flying your line, not picking up anything. For line holders, take the hourly rate and multiply by 1.15 if you want to get a closer approximation. A guy making $137./hr would credit more like $158., not $120. Again, this is based on our 2001 contract.

But you know what? It doesn't really matter, because if it goes to arbitration, they're not going to look at who made what.