SWA Flight Instruments

[batsky2000]

TO SWA pilots,
I was curious about something, and I am not looking for flame bait or putting SWA down, just some info. I heard that you guys do not use a flight director and that all of your 737-700's display round dial's like in a -200 on the EFIS? If this is the case, why is it like that? Do you not like to use vertical tapes for speed and altitude, or did all of the old timer pilots not want to learn and forced the company to have boeing program your EFIS displays to show round dials?Plus what other diferences are there in your cockpit displays that are different from the norm.

Thanks

 

[crowbar]

I don't see a flight director in either one of these pictures, but I can't believe that SWA doesn't use them.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/273065/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/257525/L/

I heard SWA decided to stay with round instruments so they wouldn't have to train pilots on glass panel and round gauges.

 

[StopNTSing]

Flight Directors...

We've got FDs in all the aircraft...even the -200s. Yes, we've lagged the rest of the industry in transitioning to EFIS displays, but this was to maintain as much commonality with the -200s as possible. All our -300/500s are non-EFIS aircraft and the -700s do indeed have a round-dial presentation on the EFIS displays. With the last of the -200s leaving next year, and a desire on the company's part to replace the dials in the -300/500s and the EFIS in the -700 with a common display type, we could conceivably go to a vertical tape presentation soon.

 

[SWA/FO]

One seniority list dude... If the 200 matchs the 300/500 & 700's then all pilots can fly any airplane, thus saving money = lower fares for our customers.

 

[turkeydrvr]

Flight Director

What is a flight director anyway?.... you mean that ancient leg spread SWA guys use when they lose the HUD?

 

[juan2go]

Round Dials on SWA -700's

Had a Continental cpt. j/s who mentioned that their n.g. 737's have the same "round dial" displays as SWA. I guess SWA is not the only one.

The flight director is required to be used for the HGS 300 rvr t/o and 700 rvr ldg. Auto throttle is inop. and not required for any low vis ops.

Juan.

 

[RightBettor]

Juan is correctimundo! I have a buddy who flies for CO. He took some pictures at work in the 737 NG while enroute. Continental's NG 737s have the same display... I was surprised but it is the same.

We use FD all the time... pilot's choice for the most part, except as noted above.

 

[batsky2000]

I just find it incredible that SWA and Continental use old round dials in brand new NG aircraft for the EFIS display. I guess you guys did not want to teach old dogs new tricks? I have gone from an airplane that is all round dials and no FMS to an airplane that is all Glass and a nice FMS and it was an easy transition, I have never heard of any one that had trouble going from round dials to reading an airspeed tape and altitude tape, most people find it much better because it is all in front of you rather than having to look over at another screen like you guys have. I am suprised that you use an FMS since the -200 did not come with FMS's. Many airlines have old -200's and NG aircraft and train in one and fly another, it is no big deal, it is just weard that the majority of the pilot group would not want a full glass cockpit the way it was meant to be?

 

[chase]

Additional comments

To expand on what was mentioned earlier, a short history lesson.

SWA's desire is always to keep costs down. When the -300s came around the choice of EFIS wasn't there, therefore round dials, all folks fly the same thing. The -500s (only 25 of them), same thing.

When the -700s came on line a conscious & money saving decision was made based upon the following: EFIS cockpit with tapes & different presentations would result in SWA having to have two groups of pilots for the first time.

So the choice became simple, keep round dial displays on the -700s & save tons of money, keep efficiency hight & still keep a safe operation...all of this has occurred. It doesn't have anything to do with teaching old dogs new tricks, it always comes down to economics & does it make sense economically.

When the -200s leave SWA plans to start converting -300s to glass & at that time it would be logical to move slowly but surely to a display that is more inline with what newer aircraft have today, tapes. In fact, the new displays in the -300s will be used to replace the higher failure rate ones in the -700s, saving lots of $$$, again SWA is always looking for ways to save money.

As for old dogs, they've learned to fly with HUDs down to 50 ft, hand flown, so I wouldn't worry too much about the ability of SWA pilots to learn new flying techniques. Hope that provides some perspective on "why" we would wish to fly the way we do. cheers,

 

[BHS]

We at Ryan also have the standard six pack efis screens on our 800s with the round dial. It's not only a SWA thing but a boeing option that some go with. We also fly the 400 with the speed tape. No big deal in flying one or the other.

 

[flyingitalian]

I believe Delta was the original lauch customer for the -700. When they backed out for whatever reason SWA became the launch customer for the -700 and thus the 6 pack arrangement. When SWA aquired Morris we also aquired the HUD. Like all things at SWA it was cheeper to do cat III with a HUD than autoland so we did the HUD. We had the HUD before the -700 so thus 1/2 of the pilot force (CAs) could and did fly with tape display. When the -700 came Im sure there was an FAA reason for the type of display but we wont know because we were not involved and it is personel way above my pay grade who made the decision. Personally I hate the display. Tape is much easier and more enjoyable but hey this is what we have. Also I believe and yet stand to be corrected that all -700s have the same presentation. Looking back I think it is easy to say that not changing was a mistake financailly. We paid more for analog gauges, paid more to fix analog guages, and now we are looking at paying to replace our analog guages with some sort of EFIS display because of free flight. As I said earlier Im sure there was some FAA influence and probably some old timer input that has us in our current situation. Who knows maybe we will wind up with something better. We did with ACARS. A ground instructor had a funny way of putting our position on ACARS. He said "we are so far behind the industry on ACARS that we are now ahead."

 

[batsky2000]

So, let me get this straight, you do not have the ability to autoland, but you have an HGS or HUD in your aircraft so that you have to shoot CATIII approches by hand? so your aircraft only have one autopilot? do you guys even have autothrottle's in your aircraft? And you have no ACARS? If no ACARS, you must have a tone of paper work to do

 

[juan2go]

let me get this straight

Four or so posts later, still haven't installed auto throttles. Change my name to otto, you might have "auto land". It is a hand flown HGS approach to Cat III (700' rvr, 50' DA). Captain flies all the way, unless incapacitated, at which time the f/o moves up a number and goes around. All instruments (dials) are round! How were they "meant" to be? Does it matter? I still get safely from A to B with 17 days off each month and time to sit here and b.s. about the shape of flt. instruments.

Regards,

Juan

 

[batsky2000]

That sure must suck not having autothrottles on an airplane that should have them, I thought that Boeing aircraft came standard with them?

 

[chase]

Thoughts

So, let me get this straight, you do not have the ability to autoland, but you have an HGS or HUD in your aircraft so that you have to shoot CATIII approches by hand? so your aircraft only have one autopilot? do you guys even have autothrottle's in your aircraft? And you have no ACARS? If no ACARS, you must have a tone of paper work to do

The aircraft doesn't autoland, the pilot autolands. Most of us like that, keeps our skills up. We train to it all the time and while we use technology (HUD, FD, FMC, ACARS) we also emphasize basic flying skills. All airlines train differently, not better, just different.

We have two autopilots in the aircraft. During CATIII both FDs are engaged, everything has to be operating perfectly for the CATIII approach to occur.

We do not have autothrottles hooked up. One less thing to break/repair/fix/cost money. There is discussion ongoing that autothrottles will be used at cruise only. Long haul flying has prompted SWA to look at the economics of having these work at cruising altitudes. We'll see.

ACARS. We are installing them into the aircraft now, probably about 1/4 - 1/3 of the fleet is updated at this time. It will be in all airplanes eventually (minus -200s that leave in 01/05). As for paperwork, we do our own TOLD info & the ops agent (there is one for each flight) does all the paperwork. The capt reviews the paperwork provided by the ops agent, numbers are plugged into a laptop (OPC) & the numbers are spit out.

Winds, runway conditions, weather are all plugged in advance & the last thing to go in are the release numbers. The ops agent provides us the load sheet 1-2 minutes prior to push, FO does the plugging in & off you go. Very slick, very efficient. If things change on the way out (wx the obvious but runway changes, etc) pull the laptop out & get new numbers. All very quick & efficient. I don't believe I have had but 1 or two incidents where I was delayed from taking off due to "getting my numbers". If I have it is because of my buffonery with the computer, not the method to our money making madness.

As for technology, a simple story. During the tech boom of the 90s & mid 90s, everyone, not just other airlines, were hiring & using tech folks like there was no tomorrow. SWA has always been slow to take the first mode/style of anything. We didn't rush to technology. Our formerly known department as systems, now technology was less than 100 folks, this when everyone had booming IT/tech departments. Our folks were getting training in the latest technology but the thousands of soon to be unemployed folks were being paid by their companies for traiing also. Lots of good ideas were being implemented while many bad ones (costly) were being thrown out by many companies, we had some failures to. SWA refused to jump in hard but chose to move methodically.

Fast forward to early late 90's/2000 & we all know the story, tech departments were laying off by the thousands, tens of thousands. Many were looking for jobs & stable jobs, something hard to find in the IT business. Who were these folks? Highly trained, highly skilled who were competing with many others for limited jobs.

Enter SWA, prior 911 begin to see the lessons learned by other carriers (good & bad), & successes of our own (approaching 50% of ticket sales on the web was the obvious one but there were many others) SWA starts to move aggressively in that area. What does SWA find when we are lookign for folks, tons of them, all trained, all eager to work for a company that provides stability & minimal chance of layoffs. We get to choose from thousands of the best trained folks (at others expense) & we have motivated, enthusiastic new employees who are grateful to have a job & work for a company that encourages innovation. (still look at southwest.com under careers & you'll always see jobs in the tech department).

Snap to today, we have over 800 folks in this department when other companies are still shrinking theirs or calling back folks who are unsure of their future. Technology is one of the key facts why SWA is able to keep their costs low & will continue to be so, as SWA marches through a steady methodical approach to growth.

The latest ACARs update will provide digital, secure, broad band width permitting tremendous expansion when the time comes. It will only improve things. SWA hasn't marched to the tune of others & that is OK by many here. To outsiders it may seem odd, but so is making money in this business, something SWA has figured out how to do. Sorry for the length, it is a story that isn't known to many. Good luck in your pursuit of your aviation goals.

 

[juan2go]

They do come standard with them (autothrottles). They are installed, they just aren't required and they are not currently used.

Also, swa a/c have acars. Well not the -200's. They have eight track tape players and cool silver engines.

Juan.

 

[Movlas]

Moral of the story is SWA does it's own thing, and Crowbar's Avatar rocks.

 

[Ty Webb]

That sure must suck not having autothrottles on an airplane that should have them, I thought that Boeing aircraft came standard with them?

We have them on the 717, and although they do a pretty good job most of the time, I prefer not to use them, especially on approach.

No matter how good they are, autothrottles can only respond, they cannot predict, and half the time you have to think two steps ahead of the autothrottles if you want them to work smoothly in certain situations.

I don't know about you, Batsky, but I got into this gig because I enjoyed flying airplanes, and autothrottles on an approach basically reduce you to tugging on the yoke to maintain the glideslope. Autoland- same thing.

 

[NEDude]

So, let me get this straight, you do not have the ability to autoland, but you have an HGS or HUD in your aircraft so that you have to shoot CATIII approches by hand? so your aircraft only have one autopilot? do you guys even have autothrottle's in your aircraft? And you have no ACARS? If no ACARS, you must have a tone of paper work to do

God forbid that the pilots actually fly the airplane! How awful.


(sarcasm in case you didn't catch it)

 

[fly2002]

hey crowbar...that girl a porn star...or someone you date'n? Either way it rocks