SWA/FL Codeshare

[Tripower455]

Hi Tri. Most airline mergers involve base switching after a SLI. Most of the NWA bases emptied and many of the senior FNWA pilots flew South, while junior DL pilots were bumped North. Even ATL got very senior quickly. It happens. But your group didn't handle the situation well during the process. Embrace that and it will set you free.



Bye Bye---General Lee

What does that have to do with how the Pan Am guys were treated by DALPA?

 

[General Lee]

Like ALPA did for the Pan Am guys.....



Which is MORE than the DALPA guys did for the Pan Am ALPA guys!

Was there binding arbitration? It was a partial asset sale. Pan Am continued flying as a stand alone afterwards. The Europe flying , the Pan Am Shuttle (727s) plus some A310s were purchased, not the entire airline. Bad example Tri. Ever hear of the dirty 30? A group of very senior 747 pilots (not going to DL) bid Shuttle 727 Capt to make sure they made the cut, but then used that seniority once at DL to immediately bid 767ER Capt at JFK (any AT guys can bid SWA capt when they go over?). They weren't stapled, and it was a partial asset sale as Pan Am still flew after the sale. Nobody had to go if they didn't want to. Bad, bad example Tri.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Was there binding arbitration? It was a partial asset sale. Pan Am continued flying as a stand alone afterwards. The Europe flying , the Pan Am Shuttle (727s) plus some A310s were purchased, not the entire airline. Bad example Tri. Ever hear of the dirty 30? A group of very senior 747 pilots (not going to DL) bid Shuttle 727 Capt to make sure they made the cut, but then used that seniority once at DL to immediately bid 767ER Capt at JFK (any AT guys can bid SWA capt when they go over?). They weren't stapled, and it was a partial asset sale. Bad, bad example Tri.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I am very aware of how that deal went down.

I was discussing pay parity timeline, that you keep bringing up.

Former Pan Am pilots, wearing Delta uniforms, flying Delta equipment did not get Delta pay parity for 27 months.

 

[Lear70]

How is that a blatent falsehood? Your group was offered ALL of your capt seats, and pay parity, starting day one, or close to it... I forget the exact date, since I've ram dumped that ridiculous deal from my mind. Your MEC turned that down and never even let it get to a vote.

Ah, I gotcha. You were referring to SIA 1. Sounded like from your post that you were talking about us giving up all that from the beginning of talks for SIA 2 and we didn't.

That doesn't mean that many weren't harmed for a long time, if not permanently. Our -3/+1 monthly vacancy model is killing the MCO guys with the acquisition (it was bad enough before), and they aren't getting an 80%+ pay raise to help ease the pain. Temporary? We'll see, but being forced to commute for many years, when you otherwise wouldn't have, is harm.

Like I said, they can look to their own union on that one. SWAPA negotiated to capture all the 737 CA seats as part of the deal, knowing that would make our senior 737 CA's F/O's who would be senior to all of your guys and the list would shuffle people from base to base.

Commuting instead of living in base sucks, I would LOVE to live in base, but I still think that's temporary, and those guys can look to your own union on that one, it's certainly not our fault.

My entire point to Ty was that there is plenty of pain on our side of the fence too.

You accuse us of not being able to see your side, yet are obviously blind to our issues (or at least won't acknowledge them).

Oh I acknowledge them, don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times there's plenty of pain to go around. I just see it temporary for more of the OSW people than not and permanent for us because of our permanent position on the list being so much less that we were here. See my post above, for some of us the pain is measured in DECADES and we NEVER retire at the same percentage of the seniority list which equals quality of life issues FOREVER.

Everyone will feel it (except the guys at the top of the OSW list including former-Morris guys). SWA and AAI alike.

Slightly better "global" seniority for the majority of SW pilots doesn't make up for the rest, especially when you consider that we bought an airline, are dumping 2/3 of the fleet, and keeping all of the employees, many of whom were placed in front of our guys.

And getting accelerated 737 deliveries in place of those, many of which were OUR delivery slots we brought with us to the game. Again, you get better global seniority by retirement at the expense of our pilots living with reduced global seniority for our entire careers. That's not the way a fair merger integration is supposed to work. Fair usually means equal benefit/pain. That's not the case here.

If this was such a windfall for our guys, then why the hell is everyone over here so pissed off about it, and have been since the 9/27 announcement.

Because, quite honestly, you guys had a VERY skewed perception of how A/M mergers work, a perception fostered by SWAPA and Management and that's my point, as shown by:

According to the FI brain trust, we should be dancing in the streets over the windfall we've gotten at the AT folks expense, yet that is not remotely the case.

Because you're not looking at it from the standpoint of what is STANDARD AND CUSTOMARY in the Aviation Industry in the last decade of acquisitions and mergers.

NEVER BEFORE since A/M has a PROFITABLE and GROWING airline being acquired/merged lost ALL of their CA seats and had 1/3 of their pilots stapled. It just doesn't happen.

Because your pilots don't care about history or other airline mergers, you can't see how YOUR MANAGEMENT TEAM PROTECTED YOU. Because of that viewpoint some of your pilots lack the ability to see what the REST of the industry has done and what likely WOULD have happened in arbitration: a DoH list or at the very least a better integration by at least half if not better than the 6.5:1 this worked out to.

Hell, look at PCL/MSA/CLG. Colgan was a BARELY profitable airline 1/4 the size of PCL and/or MSA flying turboprops, not even similar equipment, with dramatically different income expectations of the pilots, yet the arbitration award was a relative seniority hybrid that yielded BETTER than DoH for the much-lesser paid CLG pilots. THIS is what likely would have happened if your management team had just stayed out of it and let it go to arbitration then merged the lists in accordance with 6.A of the Process Agreement.

Until your guys can look at it from that perspective, No, I don't expect you guys to be happy with the outcome and for those who can, they will still wish they had stayed stand-alone and grown organically. That's why your people are unhappy.

FWIW, I've flown with several AT guys in the last few months, and every one of them, particularly the FOs, were very happy to ecstatic about being at SW. Even the 8 year Capt. finally admitted that he made more $$$ at SW as an FO, working less than he ever did on the other side. Flying with the AT guys (so far) is like the old days when I got to fly with a lot of new hires. Great attitudes and an overall "lighter", dare I say, "fun" atmosphere in the cockpit than with my RSW bros of late. That, to me, says it all.......


Oh, and I notice that the troll hasn't attempted to refute my post on Delta's idea of acceptable pay parity timelines.....

LOL - history is history. He wasn't at Delta at the time but your post about those timelines is accurate.

That said, I'm glad guys are having fun over there. It's interesting as I watch the bid awards of who comes over and who stays at AAI and bypasses. A LOT of the people bypassing are people who wanted it to go to Arbitration and are still irritated, so you're getting the people who really want to be there, and that's a good thing.

Some of us bypass for other reasons (my fiance' lives with me and makes 3 times what I do so I want the QoL over the money - we don't "need" it), but by and large, the names I see at the top of the list, especially bypassing CA's I fly with, are still pi$$ed. You're getting the people who are happy to be there right now and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. :beer:

As time goes by and people get past it, they rest will come over and I'm sure everyone will get along. Some people just take longer to move past what they lost and come to recognize and appreciate what they will gain in contrast, accept it, and find their happy place. Me included.

 

[Tripower455]

Ah, I gotcha. You were referring to SIA 1. Sounded like from your post that you were talking about us giving up all that from the beginning of talks for SIA 2 and we didn't.

No problem.... I figured it was a misunderstanding.

Like I said, they can look to their own union on that one. SWAPA negotiated to capture all the 737 CA seats as part of the deal, knowing that would make our senior 737 CA's F/O's who would be senior to all of your guys and the list would shuffle people from base to base.

I never assigned blame. SWApA has plenty of OSW blood on its hands. It doesn't change the fact that guys that would've been displaced for months are now gonna get displaced for years solely because of the SLI.

Commuting instead of living in base sucks, I would LOVE to live in base, but I still think that's temporary, and those guys can look to your own union on that one, it's certainly not our fault.

Again, I never blamed anyone, but it doesn't change what I said above.

As someone who's been "voluntarily" commuting for over 2 decades, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (well, maybe the troll )

Oh I acknowledge them, don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times there's plenty of pain to go around. I just see it temporary for more of the OSW people than not and permanent for us because of our permanent position on the list being so much less that we were here. See my post above, for some of us the pain is measured in DECADES and we NEVER retire at the same percentage of the seniority list which equals quality of life issues FOREVER.

I am not rehashing point by point....

Everyone will feel it (except the guys at the top of the OSW list including former-Morris guys). SWA and AAI alike.

That's ALL I was trying to say......

And getting accelerated 737 deliveries in place of those, many of which were OUR delivery slots we brought with us to the game. Again, you get better global seniority by retirement at the expense of our pilots living with reduced global seniority for our entire careers. That's not the way a fair merger integration is supposed to work. Fair usually means equal benefit/pain. That's not the case here.

Again, I don't have the energy to debate this again.

Because, quite honestly, you guys had a VERY skewed perception of how A/M mergers work, a perception fostered by SWAPA and Management and that's my point, as shown by:


Because you're not looking at it from the standpoint of what is STANDARD AND CUSTOMARY in the Aviation Industry in the last decade of acquisitions and mergers.

NEVER BEFORE since A/M has a PROFITABLE and GROWING airline being acquired/merged lost ALL of their CA seats and had 1/3 of their pilots stapled. It just doesn't happen.

Because your pilots don't care about history or other airline mergers, you can't see how YOUR MANAGEMENT TEAM PROTECTED YOU. Because of that viewpoint some of your pilots lack the ability to see what the REST of the industry has done and what likely WOULD have happened in arbitration: a DoH list or at the very least a better integration by at least half if not better than the 6.5:1 this worked out to.

Hell, look at PCL/MSA/CLG. Colgan was a BARELY profitable airline 1/4 the size of PCL and/or MSA flying turboprops, not even similar equipment, with dramatically different income expectations of the pilots, yet the arbitration award was a relative seniority hybrid that yielded BETTER than DoH for the much-lesser paid CLG pilots. THIS is what likely would have happened if your management team had just stayed out of it and let it go to arbitration then merged the lists in accordance with 6.A of the Process Agreement.

Until your guys can look at it from that perspective, No, I don't expect you guys to be happy with the outcome and for those who can, they will still wish they had stayed stand-alone and grown organically. That's why your people are unhappy.

See above.....

LOL - history is history. He wasn't at Delta at the time but your post about those timelines is accurate.

So, in 22 years, this SLI will be acceptable?

That said, I'm glad guys are having fun over there. It's interesting as I watch the bid awards of who comes over and who stays at AAI and bypasses. A LOT of the people bypassing are people who wanted it to go to Arbitration and are still irritated, so you're getting the people who really want to be there, and that's a good thing.

Funny how some will cut off their nose to spite their face.

Some of us bypass for other reasons (my fiance' lives with me and makes 3 times what I do so I want the QoL over the money - we don't "need" it), but by and large, the names I see at the top of the list, especially bypassing CA's I fly with, are still pi$$ed. You're getting the people who are happy to be there right now and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. :beer:

I believe that the AT folks I've flown with are sincerely happy here. I've been in the business long enough to tell.

As time goes by and people get past it, they rest will come over and I'm sure everyone will get along. Some people just take longer to move past what they lost and come to recognize and appreciate what they will gain in contrast, accept it, and find their happy place. Me included.

I agree..... I am definitely over the entire thing, but I am also fortunate enough to have not been severely impacted by it, so who am I to talk.

Having a bunch of scabs put in front of me is a kick in the nuts though.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Our -3/+1 monthly vacancy model is killing the MCO guys with the acquisition (it was bad enough before), and they aren't getting an 80%+ pay raise to help ease the pain.

80% pay raise? :laugh: Name one. Just look on the list, and find me one pilot seniority number, with their corresponding pay rates at both airlines. It ain't gonna happen.

None of our pilots who have transitioned to SWA FO got an 80% pay raise; half of them, the CA half, got a pay cut. I would bet that nearly all of our Pilots who got MCO would be in this category.

The former AAI FO's who have transitioned have been getting OAK or LAS to start, then slowly making their way east. . . . and those guys got a pay raise, but it was more like 40% . . . and they were very close to upgrade at AAI, which would have made the pay raise moot to begin with.

 

[Tripower455]

None of our pilots who have transitioned to SWA FO got an 80% pay raise; half of them, the CA half, got a pay cut. I would bet that nearly all of our Pilots who got MCO would fbe in this category.

Not according to the 8 year FAT Capt. I flew with. He told me he made more $$$ here as an FO than he ever made there as a Capt., and he wasn't busting his butt either. He must've been lying to me.

The FO's who have transitioned have been getting OAK or LAS to start, then slowly making their way east. . . . and those guys got a pay raise, but it was more like 40% . . . and they were very close to upgrade at AAI, which would have made the pay raise coming anyway.

Well, the FAT FO I flew with out of MCO must've been lying too.

 

[Ty Webb]

Not according to the 8 year FAT Capt. I flew with. He told me he made more $$$ here as an FO than he ever made there as a Capt. He must've been lying to me.

What 8 year CA transitioned to SWA? The most junior CA I can see with an award is a October 2002 hire, with a January SWA class. That means he is leaving $162. an hour to go to your FO pay. Not a gain.

[Well, the FAT FO I flew with out of MCO must've been lying too.

I'm sure the former FO is making more, but $40K/yr isn't 80%, it's more like 40%.

Where is the base list? I'd like to see how many of our FO's were awarded MCO.

 

[General Lee]

I am very aware of how that deal went down.

I was discussing pay parity timeline, that you keep bringing up.

Former Pan Am pilots, wearing Delta uniforms, flying Delta equipment did not get Delta pay parity for 27 months.

So, is that what SWAPA used as an example ON HOW TO DO THIS? They used the OLD DL-Pan Am technique? They thought, hmmm, how can we do this? Wait, I got it, let's mirror it after something that happens 23 years ago.......yeah, that will make it right.....


Gimmee a break. So, how did those Dirty 30 ex 747 Captains go back to 767 Capt so quickly? That's not allowed with you guys.

I gotta question for you Tri. How did the Pan Am guys do it with the National Airlines merger? Answer: WHO CARES? YOU DO. Make it right TODAY...... Keep living in the past, and people today will NEVER FORGET. You guys use out dated excuses. It doesn't make it right TODAY.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

First off, Although my reaction was the equivalent to a firecracker to a grenade, I apologize for anything I may have said offensive in last nights post. It was a weak moment that I let this worthless anonymous forum get the best of me. Again my sincere apologies.

Lear70, I would not want to be in your position. I would much rather be in mine. The SWAPA membership is unaware of any collusion between SWA and SWAPA. That would have spun the membership through the roof. Loyalty is the only issue SWA pilots may be guilty. And respectfully equal for the AT pilots. Until any agreement it was you vs us. Both sides were concerned of the impossible result of what was considered universally "fair". A very subjective term when you consider all the elements.

I can accept that you will never understand our point of view. If you were on the RSW side your view point would be completely different. I am certain mine would be also if I was on the AT side. We are all only the players. And it is the game that we all have the same feelings about. As the saying goes, hate the game, not the players.

Speaking of the game, I am on my seventh airline. We all know that with that many airlines the game has been not so nice. A couple furloughs, many displacements and fortunately I now work for a company that truly treats its employees very well. We feel like family. Its not perfect, but nothing ever will be. But it is hard to imagine it any better any where else. As much as you believe it untrue, the AT pilots and FAs I have talked to really do like it here. I am old and not easily fooled by fake behavior. It is genuine. I know not all AT employees will like it here. Change can be difficult especially when it is not your choice. But I have no doubt, most will.

No matter how many graphs or words you present on this forum will you be unable to change anyone's mind. Nor we with yours. Nor each others perspective. It is a logistical impossibility. Civility and lack of name calling requires maturity and self respect. I hope all of us can take the high road during this difficult transition.

Merry Christmas.