SWA First Year Pay?

[beechlive]

Days off

I've been at SWA a year and hold a hard line in PHX. I did some Line Improvement trip trade and ended up with the following days off for May.

3 on 3 off
4 on 4 off
2 on 9 off
4 on 2 off

I picked up a one day during my nine days off and ended up with 104.52 for the month plus per diem. Plus I lowered my handicap by one stroke.

Good luck you'll luv it here

 

[FatesPawn]

Pt,

The intent of the second year pay for open time/extra fly, is to encourage productivity and award new-hires for flying extra. This is the spirit that built this company into what it is today. If you choose to "work the system", while not against the rules, it is surely not the intent of the parties who agreed to this part of the contract.

Chest,

Althought "working the system" may sound sleezy or underhanded, in reality it isn't. If I give away a 3 day trip, that trip is still flown by a line holder (or reserve line holder). It doesn't go into open time. That leaves me with more room to pick up UNCOVERED flying that otherwise would be flown by a reserve. Also, since DOT/MOT/EF is biddable, that means that if it didn't go to a first year guy, it would be assigned to a reserve or worse yet, a JA event. It's not like that pilot who picked up my give-away trip could somehow be more productive if he didn't pick up my flying.

Because of our contract, I get a premium to pick up time. And because of that premium, picking up DOT/MOT/EF does NOT go toward my pilot productivity in Maestro. There are limits on how low your productivity can go. Apparently, the company is happy with these limits because they signed the last contract. When you reach these low limits, you can't elitt into lower block trips - even if it's for equal days of work. There are checks and balances in place to make sure pilots don't "work the system" too much in their favor.

There are some things that pilots do that are underhanded. Giving away and picking up DOT isn't one of them in my opinion.

Just a first year guy's opinion.

Fate

 

[jimEJet]

You can make a good deal if you want...

I just finished my first year! I am based at MDW and I do work about 16 days per month. However, I live about thirty minutes away which gives me more flexibility with my schedule. I was in training all of May and June in "04. I just tallied my first year pay and it totaled $85K without the added $3K in per diem.

Like I said, I am not the average here, I work a lot.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Chest,

Althought "working the system" may sound sleezy or underhanded, in reality it isn't. If I give away a 3 day trip, that trip is still flown by a line holder (or reserve line holder). It doesn't go into open time. That leaves me with more room to pick up UNCOVERED flying that otherwise would be flown by a reserve. Also, since DOT/MOT/EF is biddable, that means that if it didn't go to a first year guy, it would be assigned to a reserve or worse yet, a JA event. It's not like that pilot who picked up my give-away trip could somehow be more productive if he didn't pick up my flying.

Because of our contract, I get a premium to pick up time. And because of that premium, picking up DOT/MOT/EF does NOT go toward my pilot productivity in Maestro. There are limits on how low your productivity can go. Apparently, the company is happy with these limits because they signed the last contract. When you reach these low limits, you can't elitt into lower block trips - even if it's for equal days of work. There are checks and balances in place to make sure pilots don't "work the system" too much in their favor.

There are some things that pilots do that are underhanded. Giving away and picking up DOT isn't one of them in my opinion.

Just a first year guy's opinion.

Fate

Fate,

No problem with occasional dropping and picking up. But if a line pays 90-95 trips, and after giving away and picking up a first year guy is still in the 90-95 trip range but at second-year pay, I don't think any favor has been done. The pay premium for first year guys was intended as a reward for flying extra.

 

[PTinbound]

Chest,
I doubt that you'll find ANY pilot on our seniority list who is more Kool Aid drinking/happy to be here than I am. I know where I came from and I for one appreciate being here. To that end, if it helps, I used the extra money to get out of the trailer park in Detroit and move my family to the Chicago area where I can work more, cover more uncovered trips, and be more or less at the beckon call of our fellow employees in scheduling. The company wants us all to fly an "extra" day a month to increase our productivity and keep our costs down. In the end, when I was commuting, I picked up at least two extra days a month, and now I pick up at least three. That's enough to cover the "extra" for three line holding pilots.

I believe that the spirit of our company is to do anything you can, in or outside the box, that will contribute to the success of the company. At this company, unlike so many others, when the company succeeds the employees do as well. I'm always looking for ways to become a better employee than I am, to try a little harder than I do. I believe it shows honor to the good people who run this company and the good Lord who made me. If you or anyone else could make some suggestions to be an even better employee, I would welcome them.
However, I do agree with Fate in that in the end, if another pilot picked up my trip (who didn't want that 19.5 weekend three day in DOT), and I wanted the "lousy" trip in DOT, then more flying was covered that otherwise would have burned a reserve or a JA. I think that saves my company money. I'd rather pay a guy second year rates at straigt pay than someone else 1.5X fifth year pay. In so many ways, this company has succeeded in creating a "win-win" situation for all of our employees.

 

[SWA/FO]

Liking the new house CE? Living the dream!

 

[FatesPawn]

But if a line pays 90-95 trips, and after giving away and picking up a first year guy is still in the 90-95 trip range but at second-year pay, I don't think any favor has been done. The pay premium for first year guys was intended as a reward for flying extra.

Well, we'll probably have to agree to disagree

Here's my June outlook:

I have a weekend line that paid around 97 with 16 days off. couple of 3 days and a couple of 4 days.

I managed to pick up a 2 day in MOT so my TFP went up to around 111... but here's the kicker. How you and I measure our "productivity" and how the company measures our "productivity" is different. Picking up MOT INCREASES MY PRODUCTIVITY, right? Well, not quite.

DOT/MOT/EF doesn't count towards a pilot's productivity for First year guys - the same way out of seat/base awards do not either. I'm essentially getting an out of seat award for getting second year pay.

Ok, now, how does that affect me? After elitting around for a couple of days, I was at 99.5 block with 121 TFP - still 14 days off. I simply increased the quality of my trips. I had 2, 25TFP 3 days and a 31TFP 4 day among other trips. But, remember those 2 days I picked up don't count, so my productivity was only 85ish. Then, lo and behold, some sucker (just kidding) picked up one of my 3 day giveaways. Now, I'm down to 65.3 "productivity" but am still getting 95 TFP.

Of course, my plan is to pick up one of those NASTY weekend 20TFP 3 day trips (but my productivity will stay 65.3.) Who else want's them? Not a 2nd year guy. And even if they do, they'll get it because they are senior to me. But they can't get them anyway because they are too junior to hold weekends off anyway to do any DOT - unless they "gave-away" their weekend trip already... but that would defeat the purpose, no?

The bottom line is, of the 3 day trips i'm eyeing (lousy trips) I'm the CHEAPEST pilot that can fly them for the company. If a 3rd or 4th year guy picks them up, it'll cost more. If a reserve has to fly it, they've burned that reserve. Do that enough and it'll cost more becaue you have to hire more.

Actually, there is a cheaper way - to JA a 1st year guy, but I think we all agree that's not really a good option.

I understand your apples and apples argument. 16 days off with 95 is more expensive for the company if that's all 2nd year pay. But, I can tell you what I'd be doing if that premium didn't exist. I'd be hand picking up other guys giveaways or putting myself on the VJA list. No way I'm going to wait around with my seniority for crummy DOT that I only find out about 24 hours before the event. I wouldn't be dropping trips, but I'd still be elitting my crummy low juniority weekend 3 days into open time.

So, what's really more expensive? Paying a premium for guys to pick up MOT/DOT/EF or saving it all for reserves? Not that it's that simple, but I think you get my drift.

Fate

 

[SWAdude]

Not sure about MOT but scheduling does not use 29:30 when they want to fill a trip with EF or JA.

Like any good organization we're both right!

After mulling this over and reading the contract I actually put the energy into picking up the phone and calling scheduling. (Goes to show you how clear the contract is worded. ) But thats another story.

According to scheduling the 29:30 is used to fill up daily open time and monthly open time only. Anything else is 30 and 7. Including Extra fly, VJA, JA, and picking up from someone else. Something also to note that all training events are not counted towards the 30 hours but still count as duty periods so you still need to get a 24 sometime during the 7 days.

There is money to be made here if your interested in putting in the effort. Anyone telling you its easy is fooling you. You must be available virtually the whole month to work it well. But its there. To average 110 trips a month is almost always possible. More than that depends how much time you want to give to earn the extra. Another big variable is the base you are in. Some bases are greedier than others so seniority becomes a player.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I'm with Chest on this one...

This is one first year (strike that, now second year) guy that agrees with Chest on the whole "dropping and picking up" issue. While Fate makes a valid point that dropping trips does not put them in open time, it's very debatable as to whether that saves the company money. There is a greater chance that the company is now having to pay more. If, hypothetically, a first year F/O attempts to drop all their trips, and some or all of these trips are picked up by other F/O's, they are likely to cost the company much more than first year pay, as second-, third-, fourth- (etc) year F/O's are picking them up. Meanwhile, the original F/O is now picking up open time at second-year pay that would likely ultimately be assigned to a first-year reserve F/O. Seems very likely that a strategy like this is costly to the company. At any rate, this is certainly not how the company designed the system, which was to reward diligent first-year F/O's who are not making nearly the amount of more senior F/O's.

I should add that there is a bit of a danger in attempting to drop all your trips in the hopes of picking up all second-year pay. It is entirely possible that you will indeed lose much of your flying, and not be able to pick up nearly what you would like in replacement. Remember, you bid open time against others, as per your seniority. You might wind up giving away a lot, without being able to pick up what you would like, and having to put a month of flying together with the scraps of unwanted leftovers, losing more pay than you bargained for.

I speak from experience that I did very well this past year by simply using ELITT to trade stuff around, open up bigger holes in my month, and then picking up daily open time and extra fly.

 

[ivauir]

.....

 

[dudemize]

Dropping trips

In my unit guys drop trips all the time for military duty, but can you drop trips if you just want the time off unpaid, or are you obligated to fly them until someone else picks them up? Thanks

 

[FatesPawn]

In my unit guys drop trips all the time for military duty, but can you drop trips if you just want the time off unpaid, or are you obligated to fly them until someone else picks them up? Thanks

you can't simply DROP. You can give away. Mil Leave is different.

 

[SWA/FO]

Yeah, tell that to the guys in your unit...no dropping trips unless its official military stuff!

 

[FatesPawn]

This is one first year (strike that, now second year) guy that agrees with Chest on the whole "dropping and picking up" issue. While Fate makes a valid point that dropping trips does not put them in open time, it's very debatable as to whether that saves the company money. There is a greater chance that the company is now having to pay more. If, hypothetically, a first year F/O attempts to drop all their trips, and some or all of these trips are picked up by other F/O's, they are likely to cost the company much more than first year pay, as second-, third-, fourth- (etc) year F/O's are picking them up. Meanwhile, the original F/O is now picking up open time at second-year pay that would likely ultimately be assigned to a first-year reserve F/O. Seems very likely that a strategy like this is costly to the company. At any rate, this is certainly not how the company designed the system, which was to reward diligent first-year F/O's who are not making nearly the amount of more senior F/O's.

Flycatcher,

While I think that on the surface, it appears this system costs the company more money, the bottom line is that regardless of how trips are paid for that come out of open time, the number of reserves required to cover the flying is less than if this system didn't exist.

While the 1st year F/O dropping all their trips is not the guy being extra productive, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th year guy IS. I traded the productivity to him/her when I gave away a trip and picked up open time. If I simply gave away and didn't pick up, that would be an inequity. I got the premium, but that's the system.

I see your point about a non 1st year F/O picking up my time getting paid more. At the same time, I get paid more for flying a DOT trip. That doesn't sound like cost savings when a 1st year reserve could be flying that DOT...

But, reserves cost the company much more than $42.00per trip. They cost us medical benefits, 401k match, unemployment insurance premiums, etc. If every 1st year F/O was able to give away just enough to pick ALL the DOT in the system, we'd need fewer reserves and THAT would be a savings. Any time we have to assign a reserve to DOT that has been lingering in Maestro for days/weeks, we lose flexibililty. We lose the ability to cover a sick call.

I guess my hypothetical would be an F/O with 4 trips that pays 25 each to equal 100 for the month. He should make $4300 that month, but gives it all away. It's picked up by 2nd year pilots that fly it at $72/trip and so the company has to pay $7200. That's a $2900 premium paid by the company...

Now the 1st year pilot goes out and picks up 4 crummy weekend 3 days at 20TFP each. 80x72=$5670. But his original rate would have paid him 80x43=$3440. So the true premium for these trips was $5670-3440 = $2230.

So total EXTRA paid by the company for these trips is $2230+$2900=$5130

Now, lets say that none of this happened. No trading/dropping took place. What happened to those 4 DOT trips that paid 80? They have to be assinged to Joe Reserve pilot. Now, not only is Joe reserve pilot getting paid $43x90 for the month, he's putting 7.3% in his 401k, getting sick once or twice a year, Jeppesen has to send him revisions... you see where I'm going with this... I think an extra reserve pilot to cover those 80 TFP worth of flying costs more than the $5130 PREMIUM the company had to pay for existing pilots to pick up that extra time.

I realize that you can plug different numbers in above and get different results, but I think that if we are saving bodies on the property, we are saving money. I guess the bottom line is as long as I'm flying 95+ hard hours per month, it's hard to feel any guilt about how much I'm getting paid for it ;-) I think I'm doing the company a favor. Win win.

Fate

 

[FatesPawn]

Yeah, tell that to the guys in your unit...no dropping trips unless its official military stuff!

Hey, i hear you... but check my profile.

Fate

 

[T1bubba]

I agree with Fate's Pawn on this one. First year guys giving away their trips aren't that different from lance captains. I'm flying a turn today that a lance gave away, but if this turn hadn't been available most likely I'd be staying home. The company got me to fly when I was going to stay home so that's one way of getting the increased productivity they keep talking about. Obviously there are lots of other reasons for the lance program, but it does allow FO's to be more productive by ensuring more trips are given away.

Anyway the company could have just paid second year pay for every TFP above a certain number if they had wanted first year guys to max out, but they didn't. They simply wanted to encourage first year guys to help cover uncovered flying. That is what they are doing even if they give away trips to be able to pick up. I wouldn't read too much into the company's intentions, if they wanted the system to work a different way you can be sure they would have set it up that way.