SWA Fires a Newhire?!

[Aubie]

Take that attitude and shove it

It's pretty piss-poor that when someone writes a post about a rumor that a SWA new-hire gets canned somehow an assumption is made that it's a prior military guy, and suddenly everyone of you guys with chips on your shoulders starts taking cheap shots at military pilots. (Or to mention another recent post, when a military instructor-type just posts an innocent question about SWA calling T-34 guys some jacknutz fires off and advises military guys need to "pay their dues.")

Fellas, that's pretty pathetic and unprofessional. I have flown single seat and multipiloted aircraft in the navy for 10 years now and if I were to start making petty and unprofessional generalizations, it would be about the small number of GA and commercial guys I ran into at FBO's that had gigantic chips on their shoulders and thought it appropriate to give me unsolicited criticism of everything military. But I don't - the commercial guys I have had the privilege of getting to know through my type rating and interviewing at SWA were all truly outstanding guys and I'm a better pilot and person for knowing them. Those were all the kind of guys that would make great pilots at SWA - professional aviators with great attitudes - NOT guys that peruse posts looking for their chance to fire off at guys who got their flying experience through a different avenue than their own. I could go off on a tangent and detail the quality and difficulty of military training and a military flying career but I won't - that's NOT the purpose of this forum. And it's pretty pathetic that anyone from any background should have to defend himself here anyhow.

To the 99.9% of civilian guys whose time I have wasted with my ranting - I apologize. You guys are awesome. To you guys in the extreme but vocal minority who for some reason harbor resentments or jealosies towards military pilots - GET OVER IT. Petty attitudes like that will surface when you interview and the only one who gets screwed is you. Great companies like SWA aren't looking for guys with deep-seated prejudices.

And the next time someone suggests we military guys "pay our dues" - call me and tell me that when you've brought aboard a 50K lb airplane with one engine out aboard the only airport within 3K miles and it's pitching back and forth in seas so rough you can see the screws coming up out of the water.

 

[ivauir]

Ok the Captain has turned on the "simma down" sign. So ya'll just simma down.

Good and bad pilots come in all shapes, sizes and have a wide variety of backgrounds. The training here is great and not intended to weed anybody out (so again I say simma down). I just don't want any of our new hires (or potential new hires) to freak out. I have personally known folks who have struggled here (both mil and civies, so don't even start). None of the folks I know like this got fired, in fact that never even came up. They all got the training they needed (they all had great attitudes).

 

[737 Pylt]

Bingo!

Petty attitudes like that will surface when you interview and the only one who gets screwed is you. Great companies like SWA aren't looking for guys with deep-seated prejudices.

Exactly!
Then they look at themselves and say, gosh, why didn't I get hired with all my flight time/experience?!?! True attitude shines through in an interview!
737

 

[Schiphol]

long time listener first time caller...love the show.

Aubie...way to bring the heat on the first post. Sounds just like a conversation we had recently.

And to second what the Aubster said...

This 'rarified' profession of ours has enough nastiness in it these days.
The amount of darkness in this industry today all but blots out the few bright lights we do continue to have in the industry. Be these people of good reputation (Neeleman, Kelleher Aubie) or companies who help themselves while helping the greater good.

Southwest, in my humble opinion, is one of those shining beacons of light. And not only because SWA is hiring...but because they seek out people that are good for this industry. It is by no coincidence or bizarre twist of fate that these people are simply Good people as well.

Life is too short and flying is too fun to be petty about who is getting a better deal; or to be bitter because some dude with only 2000 hours of single seat time screwed away a chance you wish you had had.

Dude, some dorky British cat married Jennifer Connelly...you don't hear me complaining anymore. Well, at least not since the restraining order.

Do what you do because you love to do it. Don't decry someone else's good fortune (and subsequent bad fortune) because it was not yours. Everyone gets their opportunity in the Cosmic batter's box....just make the most of it when you get there. Don't bitch because the dude in front of you popped out to left field.

Eh, thats enough. Be like Fonzie.

 

[Juvat]

Amen brutha

Aubie and Schiphol--you guys hit the nail on the head.

 

[Aubie]

OK.....may have gotten a little carried away on my last - my apologies. Not trying to upset anyone, just came across a few anti-military comments on some other threads recently. Sorry if I stirred the pot....just standing up for my brothas.

That stinks, BTW, about Jennifer Connelly. Now I know why she doesn't return my calls....

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Aubie..

While i agree with your post..I didnt get the idea that anyone was running down the military guys..

But..I will add this..

Flying a single seat weapons system does very little to prepare anyone for flying the line in a 737..

Its the same the other way around..If ive never flown a F-16 and was put into the training pipeline to do so after having flown nothing but 737s..It wouldnt be a pretty site..

But..In both cases the training system will more than likely provide the required training..
Success will depend on both the effort and the attitude employed during training..

In both of these cases,I feel that it would be normal and reasonable for it to be a difficult transition..

A persons attitude while dealing with difficulties is usually the difference between success and failure..

Since the military doesnt issue one and the civies cant buy one..I guess that attitude is still considered a part of the individual and not because of where they came from.

So..What does it matter?Theres good and bad in both..

I dont care how you slice it..

We all paid dues of some kind..

Its just that some of us didnt learn anything from it..

Mike

 

[Tripower455]

We all paid dues of some kind..

Its just that some of us didnt learn anything from it..

In a nutshell...........

 

[RJP]

I hope they finally at SW realize that been ex-military guy does not mean great pilot etc... More room for regional guys!

Hope your resume looks better than your post. Thanks for the in-depth input.

Aubie, I thought your long post was a shack. It gets tiring to have to answer questions about why guys with military training often get hired with lower time.

There's a lot of haters out there!

 

[RJP]

Flying a single seat weapons system does very little to prepare anyone for flying the line in a 737..

Its the same the other way around..If ive never flown a F-16 and was put into the training pipeline to do so after having flown nothing but 737s..It wouldnt be a pretty site..

But..In both cases the training system will more than likely provide the required training..
Success will depend on both the effort and the attitude employed during training..
Mike

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I think you're a bit off base on some of this. Flying single-seat does a lot to prepare you to fly the line in a 737. Consider the fact that you're flying a $30mil aircraft 540kts at 500'AGL while trying to maintain your formation with lead and find the right spot to pop and deliver your bombs. Now keep in mind that you are probably doing this with 300-400 total time with no one else in the jet to help out. Going 300kts at FL300 with a crew doesn't seem so daunting.

While I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree, the transition can be made smoothly if effort is put in by said fighter pilot. Some guys make the transition easier than others. After flying aircraft to their limits for a number of years, if you're willing and have a good attitude, transitioning to the world of 25º bank turns can be painless.

Now, as for a 737 guy learning to fly a fighter, the transition has historically been difficult for some. Having to "unlearn" all the civilian ways of flying when you've got 2000tt and getting yelled at by a FAIP with 300tt is too much for some guys to handle. The guard and reserve guys that usually don't make it through pilot training are the ones with high time, poor attitudes and the feeling that their experience outside the military will carry them through.

But you're right that a good attitude and effort will carry you a long way.

 

[Schiphol]

What do you boys need a refresher? Its all ball-bearings these days.
-I.M. Fletcher

gotta agree a little bit with both posts. A little bit country and a little bit rock and roll. But typically the transition from tactical flying to 737 type flying is fairly seamless for guys who are current and proficient.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It's pretty piss-poor that when someone writes a post about a rumor that a SWA new-hire gets canned somehow an assumption is made that it's a prior military guy, and suddenly everyone of you guys with chips on your shoulders starts taking cheap shots at military pilots. (Or to mention another recent post, when a military instructor-type just posts an innocent question about SWA calling T-34 guys some jacknutz fires off and advises military guys need to "pay their dues.")

Fellas, that's pretty pathetic and unprofessional. I have flown single seat and multipiloted aircraft in the navy for 10 years now and if I were to start making petty and unprofessional generalizations, it would be about the small number of GA and commercial guys I ran into at FBO's that had gigantic chips on their shoulders and thought it appropriate to give me unsolicited criticism of everything military. But I don't - the commercial guys I have had the privilege of getting to know through my type rating and interviewing at SWA were all truly outstanding guys and I'm a better pilot and person for knowing them. Those were all the kind of guys that would make great pilots at SWA - professional aviators with great attitudes - NOT guys that peruse posts looking for their chance to fire off at guys who got their flying experience through a different avenue than their own. I could go off on a tangent and detail the quality and difficulty of military training and a military flying career but I won't - that's NOT the purpose of this forum. And it's pretty pathetic that anyone from any background should have to defend himself here anyhow.

To the 99.9% of civilian guys whose time I have wasted with my ranting - I apologize. You guys are awesome. To you guys in the extreme but vocal minority who for some reason harbor resentments or jealosies towards military pilots - GET OVER IT. Petty attitudes like that will surface when you interview and the only one who gets screwed is you. Great companies like SWA aren't looking for guys with deep-seated prejudices.

And the next time someone suggests we military guys "pay our dues" - call me and tell me that when you've brought aboard a 50K lb airplane with one engine out aboard the only airport within 3K miles and it's pitching back and forth in seas so rough you can see the screws coming up out of the water.

UPHILL BOTH WAYS IN 17FT. OF SNOW TOO!!!

 

[jdru25]

One of the finest captains that I've flown with was from the Military. He is on furlough from USAir and is flying with us under the J4J agreement. On the other hand I've had great experiences from our civilian captains. I agree with everyone that attitude is everything.........C'mon who wants to spend 4 days with an uptight A$$hole!

 

[100LL... Again!]

"Paying dues" usually means working long hours for crappy pay, paying your owwn way through flight school while working a part-time job, etc.

Paying dues has nothing to do with the degree of difficulty of the previous job. Nice attempt at the 'trump card" though.

Are you saying, then, that a military pilot that never landed on a carrier but spent most of his time flying from one really large airport to another doing something mundane like troop transport is less 'worthy' that you?

That seems to be what you are implying.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

While i have no dog in this fight..

The bottom line is that the military guys as well as the civies tend to be as a group biased towards their fellow members..

I think a certain amount of that is normal..

Where it gets out of hand is..

1.When one un-informed member of the group bashes a member of the other side without the benefit of personal experiences or insight.

2.And then a member of the other side of the isle is stupid enough to respond to what is clearly a non-productive bit of flame bait..

In either case its a pointless pursuit..

When asked during training what aircraft you fly..

The answer better be what ever the company is paying you to fly..Nothing else matters at that point..

Mike

 

[RVR300]

Aubie...

Don't fly angry.

The thing that gives you guys the bad stereotype is the 'I served and the world owes me something' attitude that unfortunately follows many of your comrades. That and the 'what could you possibly teach me' attitude that very often corresponds with it.

The point some of you miss is that 'paying your dues' is as biased as much by military guys as the civies. If some junior officer jumps the chain and get promoted over you and your squadronmates you would say he didn't pay his dues. Same thing for when a fighter type with zero 'real world' experience jumps in ahead of a guy that put in seven years flying commuters. Different dues boys. And not always transferrable, especially these days.

Remember guys, your prior experience is only what gets you in the door here. It's what you do here afterwards that really counts.

Pay your dues in the right seat. Keep up the learing curve and you'll do fine. Bring aboard a bunch of attitude and 'when I was at the pentagon' and you might end up like the guy that was let go. And rightfully so.

In the final analysis, as qualified as you think you are, there are thousands more out there just as qualified or moreso. So all things being equal, who gets hired and who gets fired? Easy to figure out.

 

[chase]

Well said Mike....good to see you back, hope all is well. Gotta go do what we use to do a lot of...talk about SWA!!!! hope to hear from you soon,

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Hey dude..

I hope all is well at your house..

Give me a call sometime and i will bring you up to speed..

Now go outside and play..Stop sitting in front of this stupid box..

Mike

 

[AA717driver]

After all that thrashing and trashing it still comes back to attitude.TC

(Of course SOME of us ARE a little better than others.... KIDDING, I'm kidding...OK? )

P.S.--What's a "COD Pilot"? An F-14 guy said they were all gay. I didn't get it.

 

[Falconjet]

Not that there's anything wrong with that!


No, of course not.



FJ

 

[Snakum]

UPHILL BOTH WAYS IN 17FT. OF SNOW TOO!!!

LMAO! God knows ... I wish I was man enough to bring aboard a 50K lb airplane with one engine out aboard the only airport within 3K miles and it's pitching back and forth in seas so rough you can see the screws coming up out of the water while a trained monkey stabbed at my eyes with 6" hat pins and weasels ripped my flesh ... and uh .... blowing snow and all that ...

A couple posters here are a prime example of why military pilots are given a hard time about their attitudes by us civies. And I'm sure you both know who you are ... so I won't point it out.

Really guys ... with all due respect ... get over yourselves just a little. We had a 58-year-old grandmother soloing in Skyhawks in 20 hours at one of the last FBOs I worked at. It ain't brain surgury.

Minh - Humble Ex-Grunt Trying To Fly For A Living

 

[SLOTH]

Allright crybabies, is it time for a group hug? I find this bickering back and forth dissapointing and it serves no purpose but to piss someone else off! Why don't we all act like adults and get back to discussing the stuff that matters for us aviators... seniority, sex and freeflowing beer (or beverage of choice).

Sloth

 

[Schiphol]

Snakum,

Look cowgirl, I don't care who you have seen 'solo' or with what.

All this whining about 'paying your dues'...etc. I don't care how crappy your life was prior to getting into a regional/major, whatever (NOT YOU IN PARTICULAR SNAKUM...PLS disregard). You and I are all a creature of our own choices. The fact of the matter is everyone is trying to say that theirs is the 'gold standard' by which all other aviators should be measured. This just isn't true. I guarantee you that I would have had no idea how to keep that DC-10 in Sioux City airborne...nor do I assume to think I would be good enough w/ 10 years of heavy line experience (from now) to do such.

Tactical military flying is not the end all be all...but I can tell you that it is demanding.
More demanding than the majority of civilian flying jobs out there. Landing on a ship at night...hundreds of times may not sound like paying 'your dues'....but I guaranDAMtee you that most of us would take the crappy pay, long hours....and nights on the beach over it...any day and twice on Sunday.

We all have our stories of woe...lets get over it and figure out how to get all of us decent flying jobs.

 

[SWAdude]

Its all about mutual respect. Doesn't matter where you come from.

SWAdude

 

[Schiphol]

YEAH, what SWAdude said. Probably why he works at SWA.

 

[Tripower455]

The guard and reserve guys that usually don't make it through pilot training are the ones with high time, poor attitudes and the feeling that their experience outside the military will carry them through.

The same can be said for the military guys transitioning to the civilian world.

It's all in the attitude.

I personally have been told by an ex F-15 type NEW HIRE (who I had just bought a few adult beverages for....), that he felt that civilians had no business at SWA, and proceeded to tell me what's what. I didn't bother to remind him that SWA is a civilian company...... I just laughed, then asked him if the F-15 was one of those green, army plane with 4 propellers After describing to me the differences between air superiority fighters and targets, I then asked him if they called his plane the "Eagle", and if so, didn't he have to be homosexual to fly it? I thought he was gonna hit me........

In his defense, he had already had a few before I got down there, so he probably wasnt able to contain his attitude. He is still here, 5 years or so later, so I assume that he either kept the attitude in check, or someone handed him his a$$......

In almost 20 years of airline flying, I have flown with pilots of just about every backround. From 250 hour EEOC wonders to 15,000 hour numerous airline guys, to blue angels, thunderbirds, corporate guys, commuter pukes, cargo guys, fighter guys, colonels, astronauts etc etc etc etc.

No one group corners the market on jerks, nor are any devoid of them.........

FWIW, while I'll razz some of the military guys (especially the "retarded kernals" ), some of my favorite guys to fly with (in both seats) have this pedigree, and conversely, some of the biggest jerks I've flown with have been pure civilians.

As a matter of fact, the 4 worst guys that I've ever flown with as an FO were civilians.

Attitude is everything........

 

[RJP]

The same can be said for the military guys transitioning to the civilian world.

It's all in the attitude.

I personally have been told by an ex F-15 type NEW HIRE (who I had just bought a few adult beverages for....), that he felt that civilians had no business at SWA, and proceeded to tell me what's what. I didn't bother to remind him that SWA is a civilian company...... I just laughed, then asked him if the F-15 was one of those green, army plane with 4 propellers After describing to me the differences between air superiority fighters and targets, I then asked him if they called his plane the "Eagle", and if so, didn't he have to be homosexual to fly it? I thought he was gonna hit me........

In his defense, he had already had a few before I got down there, so he probably wasnt able to contain his attitude. He is still here, 5 years or so later, so I assume that he either kept the attitude in check, or someone handed him his a$$......

In almost 20 years of airline flying, I have flown with pilots of just about every backround. From 250 hour EEOC wonders to 15,000 hour numerous airline guys, to blue angels, thunderbirds, corporate guys, commuter pukes, cargo guys, fighter guys, colonels, astronauts etc etc etc etc.

No one group corners the market on jerks, nor are any devoid of them.........

FWIW, while I'll razz some of the military guys (especially the "retarded kernals" ), some of my favorite guys to fly with (in both seats) have this pedigree, and conversely, some of the biggest jerks I've flown with have been pure civilians.

As a matter of fact, the 4 worst guys that I've ever flown with as an FO were civilians.

Attitude is everything........

Wait a second, I think I know that guy! The ego bruise after the helo comment must've scarred him for life!

Nicely done and well said.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I'd like to see Mr. "civilians have no place in commercial aircraft" in an iced-up baron in northern michigan. Might decide that he is not the only one who has had an opportunity to develop a skill or two.

 

[Schiphol]

Dudes....not worth getting all worked up about. With regards to the F-15 driver. Hell the Eagle dudes I have flown with were either the greatest Americans on the planet or complete prima donna freak-shows. I can say that about this group I fly with now...although the bad dudes are 1 in 100.

There are a$$holes on both sides of the fence...no one corporation or body of professionals is immune to them. Unfortunately...

Lets all start our own airline of only cool guys/girls and everyone starts at $100 an hour/ the stewardesses are all under 35 and we only fly to the best cities in the world...(except for the pay I think I'm describing Virgin Atlantic).

 

[Aubie]

my bad...

It seems like I tossed a grenade into a gasoline pool and reproved the old axiom "2 gin & tonics + internet access = stand by to put foot in pie-hole"

Seriously, though. I agree with 99% of all the comments posted and apologize if anyone got bent out of shape - I just have a strong distaste for prejudices of any sort. I think I speak for 99% of military guys when I say there really isn't any kind of derogatory or demeaning attitude towards civilian guys on our part. Never meant it like that - just don't like it the other way either. (If someone looks over some other recent threads he'll find some definite anti-military sentiment.) And like I said initially, some of the finest people and pilots I have met are guys from the regional and corporate world that I have got to know in the last year. If some old fighter guy says civilians have no place in a major, he is definitely not speaking for the majority. (But that's probably just his advisor, Jack Daniels, speaking for him.) The fact is, we are all on this site because we WANT to be civilians...

So, sorry if I ruffled some feathers and distracted everyone from the real purpose here - getting sweet gouge and advice from the likes of Obi-Chase Kenobi et al...