SWA Domiciles for Newbies

[T2Pilot]

Anyone know if SWA places new hires in particular domiciles initially or is there some choice involved? If its placement where are most going this year?

Thanks in advance.

 

[chase]

Looks like for March & April every new hire went to OAK...things could change & have been different before with some new hires going to MDW & BWI but that is the latest data of March & for April. Hope that helps.

 

[T2Pilot]

How long was it before you were able to hold a line in Dallas?

 

[Benhuntn]

We have several new gates opening at BWI so there may be growth there soon. I am no expert, only been at BWI but it would probably take 3-6 months to get DAL and 3-4 months to get HOU. BWI may be possible right after IOE. OAK is usually the most junior base. I just reread your question. It may take a new guy 1 yr to hold a line in DAL.

 

[FlyingGuy]

Does that mean after probation you can start to bid for a new domicile? Is it pretty much the same at other carriers?

 

[Alcatraz]

Your domicile bid is a standing bid, meaning you don't have to keep resubmitting it every time there are vacancies in domiciles. Lately there have been vacancies posted almost every month, and I don't know of any restriction against new hires switching bases while on probation (I think flight attendants do have a restriction). Other airlines may not have as many bases or allow you to switch as often, so it can vary significantly at other carriers.

I started a few months ago, and my domicile preferences were:

1. MDW
2. BWI
3. MCO
4. All the others

My first real month on the line was in February (last month), where I ended up with MCO (to many people's surprise). Effective in March, I'm in MDW.

Chase is right... most new hires end up in OAK for a month or two (or three or four) before they are able to hold a slightly less junior base like MDW, BWI, or MCO. Newhires that started about a month or two after me are still mostly in OAK. HOU is getting pretty junior, too, but PHX and DAL attainable within 6-12 months right now.

Holding a line is another ballgame, one that I'm still to junior to play for a few more months.

And as usual, this stuff changes all the time...

 

[mach zero]

We have several new gates opening at BWI so there may be growth there soon. I am no expert, only been at BWI but it would probably take 3-6 months to get DAL and 3-4 months to get HOU. BWI may be possible right after IOE. OAK is usually the most junior base. I just reread your question. It may take a new guy 1 yr to hold a line in DAL.

1 year to hold DAL at all right now. I see it being more like 2 1/2 to 3 years from DOH to be done with reserve for good @ DAL.

 

[Tonedrvr]

Why don't more people want MCO? It seems like a good place to live.

 

[maxpwrset]

We have several new gates opening at BWI so there may be growth there soon. I am no expert, only been at BWI but it would probably take 3-6 months to get DAL and 3-4 months to get HOU. BWI may be possible right after IOE. OAK is usually the most junior base. I just reread your question. It may take a new guy 1 yr to hold a line in DAL.

FWIW, I've been here about 9 months and have just now been able to bid HOU. When I first got online, I met an FO who got DAL at the 10 mos point. It's seemingly been going more senior each month since then. DAL is at least 6 more months away for me as far as I can figure, maybe further. To hold a line in Dallas, who knows... Unlike the other domiciles, Dallas aint exactly a growth base, so getting in there seems to be solely related to upgrades and retirements.

Nevertheless, I figure I'll still get to DAL faster than I thought I would when I got hired. And, with current hiring forecasts, times to the domicile of your choice could change dramatically.

 

[T2Pilot]

I appreciate all the great info. Hopefully I'll need it! I think I'd like any of the bases but my wife really wants to live near Dallas. I'd like to avoid commuting at least at first as I have two young kids. Maybe Wright will finally be put to rest soon. Here's hoping!

 

[firstthird]

Even if wright is repealed soon, DAL is likely to remain very senior for a good long while, although apparently PHX could be the most senior in 10 years or something. DAL can only grow so much even if the WA goes away and there are TONS of guys that are commuting out of DAL as it is to HOU or anywhere else. My suspiscion is that when WA goes away, lots of guys that were bidding to HOU or BWI or MDW will come back and finally stop being commuters, still leaving DAL as monster senior. It will sure as heck help seniority everywhere else though. Maybe some guys that are actually living/working in DAL can give you more real info though.

Gotta live where you gotta live, but unless your wife has family there or something, any thoughts about living in another domicle? As a FO it will eventually get better but 5 or 6 years down the road from being a newhire, DAL based guys are faced with the choice of captain anywhere else or FO in DAL, and that can be for years. Seeing as a FO you go from bottom of FO seniority to top in 5/6 years, but once you start as a Captain you go from bottom to somewhere near the top in 15-25 years. i.e. even if you can take the seniority pain as a FO, there will come a point where you either commute for 5 years (guess) or take a 40% pay cut the entire time. That can pay a lot of state taxes and bigger house prices, imo.

Admittedly though, if not for the SWA specific seniority problem, DAL would be up there as a place to live in my book too. Just can't see putting myself/family through the low seniority it would entail. Good luck either way.

 

[radarlove]

r but 5 or 6 years down the road from being a newhire, DAL based guys are faced with the choice of captain anywhere else

There it is again...the fantasy upgrade time at SWA.

How about, "Seven or eight years..."

 

[firstthird]

This isn't in reply to radarlove but to the original poster. I'll post again to talk about the 5 yr upgrade thing just for radarlove.

just spent a few minutes pulling some data off the seniority list. I'll list 3 different catagories and date of hires/years to hold said catagory. listed most senior to junior. (and I may have messed up a year/month thing here or there, public math)

Catagories are
Junior Lance Captain (first available upgrade)
Junior Captain (upgrade in base in seat)
30% Captain (random pick to show when your bidding gets decent in seat, just a wag)

Junior Lance Captain in Base (a lance is a senior FO who is Captain qualified and can fly captain trips on his days off, can be a good deal if you can give away your FO stuff and get pick up captain flying, top 8% of hardline FOs get this)

DAL ..... 2/98 ..... 8 yrs 1 month
OAK ..... 5/99 .....6 yrs 10 months
HOU .....6/99 ......6 yrs 9 months
PHX .....6/99....... 6y9m
MCO .....7/99 ......6y8m
MDW .....8/99..... 6y7m
BWI ......9/99...... 6y6m

junior captain

DAL .....3/94 ......12 years
HOU .....6/97 ......8y9m
PHX .....8/97..... .8y7m
MCO ..... 3/99..... 7yr
OAK .....3/99.......7yr
MDW .....6/99 .....6yr9m
BWI .....7/99 ......6yr8m

30% from bottom of captain's seniority list in domicile

DAL .....4/88 ..... 17yr11m
PHX .....1/94 ......11yr2m
HOU .....3/94 ......11yr
OAK .....3/96 ..... 10yr
MCO ....4/96 .......9yr11m
MDW ....1/98 ......8yr2m
BWI .....5/98 ......7yr10m

Things to notice. Junior lance is same within 4 months everywhere but DAL.

5 more years to make Junior Captain in DAL.

10 more years to hold 30% from bottom as Captain in DAL.

This is just a snapshot as of today and seniority is really a personal thing. For instance, at my seniority level of 2 years, MCO is second only to DAL as a senior FO base. Meaning I'm worse off seniority wise in MCO than I would be in PHX or HOU, which you couldn't pick off from the snapshot above.

So, if you get hired just after 1000 guys that are all going to live in Chicago no matter what, you might get crappy seniority in Chicago most of your career even though on average MDW is good for seniority right now. Thus the PHX postulate, that PHX will be the most senior eventually as the original DAL guys retire and the guys in PHX just stay there. Debatable.

Next up, new hires by year to explain the 5-6 year upgrade conumdrum (sp?).

 

[firstthird]

Now for the 5 year upgrade deal. Below are years hired and the upgrade time to captain at SWA (from me looking throught the list and grabbing numbers, not any kind of median/mean/average to it, just rought)

1975.....2 years
1980.....3 years
1985.....5 years
1990.....4 years
1995.....5 years
1999.....6 - 7 years

Now why did it go up to 7 years all of the sudden. Well, 9/11 changed SWAs growth plans somewhat. From what I've read and observed, SWA likes to grow at 10% a year, this gives us many good things, i.e. controlled growth enabling us to manage it well, a continually growing/young work force without the entire pilot list on 12 year pay, etc. Read Nuts and/or Hard Landing if you are interested in why 10% is good for growth but mabye 30% is not.

Now, below is the new hire pilots by year for 10 years or so.

06.....62 (so far off the list I was using, may/probably is more)
05....539
04....392
03....148
02....195
01....445
00....429
99....408
98.....240
97.....210
96....200
95....155
94....421
93....187

you'll notice that 2002 and 2003 were low. Company was more around 2000 pilots in the mid 90s so, 200ish was 10%. Now the company has more like 4800 pilots, so the 392/539 for the last two years is close to 10%.

The reason that guys upgrading right now are at 7 years is that they missed 1.5 years worth of hiring, roughly. the 195 and 148 were very low for 02/03, for reasons we all understand.

Now, lets take the example nearest and dearest to my heart, me. I was hired in early 2004, right at the end of the 9/11 depressed hiring phase. Now lets compare my upgrade to someone that was hired in 2003, 4 months after 9/11. We are going to upgrade within 6 months of each other more than likely even though he has been on property 2 years longer than me. All due to the lower hiring numbers in 2003/2004.

Since I sat in the pool for 2 years and 2 months, this is how I look at it. I did my 'extra captain upgrade time' waiting in the pool, with no job at SWA. Whereas the guy who got hired and didn't sit in the pool, he did his 'extra captain upgrade time' at SWA getting paid and accruing stuff like vacation weeks, etc. Is his 7 or 8 year upgrade any sooner because of this? No. But , neither is this a 'new trend, the beginning of the end, 12 year upgrades around the corner.' Now, if SWA goes away from our 30 years+ history of growing at a SUSTAINABLE rate of 10%, then all bets are off. If we stop buying planes and hiring, we'll obviously stop upgrading.

For me, I'm content to upgrade when it comes. I'd rather wait 5 or 6 or even 8 years and still be at the same company when I retire (knock on wood) than to get a 1 year or 2 year upgrade and then have all the turmoil and confusion that goes with startup airlines. Just my opinion, and I'm sure other people will disagree.

 

[Reebo]

Third, great info! do you have retirement numbers based on age 60?

 

[chase]

A brief look at the near term for retirements. 25% of 4800+ plus pilots retire over the next 8 years (no change to Age 60)...however, aircraft orders look good through '12...317 aircraft between now & '12!!!!

Firm Orders and Options to Purchase Boeing 737-700 Aircraft​

Delivery Year Firm Orders Options Purchase R ights Total Aircraft
2006.....................33...........0..............0........................33
2007.....................28.......... 8............ 20.......................56
2008......................6...........25........... 20......................51
2009-2012..............0...........0........... 177......................177
Totals..................67......... 33........... 217.....................317 (that's a lot of new hires!!)
(maybe by then Boeing with have the "next" NG 737!!!!)

Birth CY Yr Tot % Culm %

1946 2006 133 133 2.75% 2.75%
1947 2007 143 276 2.95% 5.70%
1948 2008 135 411 2.79% 8.49%
1949 2009 108 519 2.23% 10.72%
1950 2010 142 661 2.93% 13.65%
1951 2011 160 821 3.30% 16.96%
1952 2012 149 970 3.08% 20.03%
1953 2013 106 1,076 2.19% 22.22%
1954 2014 137 1,213 2.83% 25.05%