Mooseman
Mardini
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SentryIP
Better lucky than good!
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 223
Sorry for the bad vibes...
Opie (and all):
I imagine your first reply was targeting me. As you know, I am not one to say things which are not true. It is my job to be honest and objective -- not to sugarcoat things. I trust you don't really believe I was trying to "demoralize" anyone.
I debated whether to post the info and my analysis for a long time. After numerous (i.e., dozens) recent queries from clients in the pool and future clients awaiting an interview, it is a fact that a lot of folks ARE basing important decisions on airline hiring trends. I have one client (current airline pilot) who sold his house in Phoenix shortly after getting hired by SWA. He and his wife had already been househunting in Baltimore and SWA training was in full swing. Well, immediately after signing the papers for the sale, he gets a call from SWA that training is suspended for the foreseeable future. He now gets to commute to Phoenix from Baltimore. Many other folks are making important decisions, such as whether to buy a house, where to move, whether to sign a military extension, whether to search for/accept other flying positions, etc.
So even though some have not yet had to make important decisions affecting their family or financial situations, many more have found themselves doing so. It is important that these decisions are informed, and not based on bad info and rumors.
Is the sky falling? NO! Although 6 months to a year is an eternity to pilots in the pool, on furlough, awaiting military separation, etc., it is a blip in the turbulent airline world. For those of you who prepped with me, you remember me always saying that the "only certainty in the airline industry is uncertainty!" Will SWA recover "soon" and begin unprecented hiring? Yes! Unfortunately, the definition of "soon" is not two weeks or two months.
I pray that I am wrong...
For those of you wondering about being in a non-flying situation right now, here are the words straight from the mouth of the Phoenix chief pilot: "You will not be removed from the hired pool for not being current, but being current will certaintly help you do better in SWA training."
In addition, I thoroughly discussed the situation where someone is removed from the hired pool. Reasons given for removing someone from the pool include dishonesty in any area of the hiring process (interview, paperwork, etc.), a situation occuring which now prevents the person from meeting SWA hiring criteria, or more than one SWA pilot voicing extreme disapproval of the potential new-hire.
To further explain a possible misunderstanding from my previous post, hiring for ALL interviews in 2002 added between 350-400 folks to the pool. The "type-rating scholarship" interviews only accounted for 15-20. Only a handful of free type ratings are awarded annually. Many of the folks interviewing for the scholarships are not given scholarships, but are added to the hired pool contingent on paying for their own type rating (just like everyone else). BTW, these "scholarships" are part of a program sponsored in part by OBAP and Women in Aviation.
I hope this info helps some of you. I try to monitor this forum when I can, and just want to keep anyone from making an important decision based on unreliable info. I am not trying to bust anyone's bubble.
Best of luck to all.
Opie (and all):
I imagine your first reply was targeting me. As you know, I am not one to say things which are not true. It is my job to be honest and objective -- not to sugarcoat things. I trust you don't really believe I was trying to "demoralize" anyone.
I debated whether to post the info and my analysis for a long time. After numerous (i.e., dozens) recent queries from clients in the pool and future clients awaiting an interview, it is a fact that a lot of folks ARE basing important decisions on airline hiring trends. I have one client (current airline pilot) who sold his house in Phoenix shortly after getting hired by SWA. He and his wife had already been househunting in Baltimore and SWA training was in full swing. Well, immediately after signing the papers for the sale, he gets a call from SWA that training is suspended for the foreseeable future. He now gets to commute to Phoenix from Baltimore. Many other folks are making important decisions, such as whether to buy a house, where to move, whether to sign a military extension, whether to search for/accept other flying positions, etc.
So even though some have not yet had to make important decisions affecting their family or financial situations, many more have found themselves doing so. It is important that these decisions are informed, and not based on bad info and rumors.
Is the sky falling? NO! Although 6 months to a year is an eternity to pilots in the pool, on furlough, awaiting military separation, etc., it is a blip in the turbulent airline world. For those of you who prepped with me, you remember me always saying that the "only certainty in the airline industry is uncertainty!" Will SWA recover "soon" and begin unprecented hiring? Yes! Unfortunately, the definition of "soon" is not two weeks or two months.
I pray that I am wrong...
For those of you wondering about being in a non-flying situation right now, here are the words straight from the mouth of the Phoenix chief pilot: "You will not be removed from the hired pool for not being current, but being current will certaintly help you do better in SWA training."
In addition, I thoroughly discussed the situation where someone is removed from the hired pool. Reasons given for removing someone from the pool include dishonesty in any area of the hiring process (interview, paperwork, etc.), a situation occuring which now prevents the person from meeting SWA hiring criteria, or more than one SWA pilot voicing extreme disapproval of the potential new-hire.
To further explain a possible misunderstanding from my previous post, hiring for ALL interviews in 2002 added between 350-400 folks to the pool. The "type-rating scholarship" interviews only accounted for 15-20. Only a handful of free type ratings are awarded annually. Many of the folks interviewing for the scholarships are not given scholarships, but are added to the hired pool contingent on paying for their own type rating (just like everyone else). BTW, these "scholarships" are part of a program sponsored in part by OBAP and Women in Aviation.
I hope this info helps some of you. I try to monitor this forum when I can, and just want to keep anyone from making an important decision based on unreliable info. I am not trying to bust anyone's bubble.
Best of luck to all.
Last edited:
SentryIP
Better lucky than good!
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 223
Thanks
Rob,
Your comments carry a lot of weight on this forum because of your very successful consulting business (when Rob talks, people listen!). I hope you didn't take the flurry of questions negatively. More than anything, all the poolies just wanted more clarification because it, seemingly, your news came out of nowhere. We all appreciate you frequenting this forum and providing any "insider" information and your perspective on SWA and the airlines industry. Take care and fly safe!
Rob,
Your comments carry a lot of weight on this forum because of your very successful consulting business (when Rob talks, people listen!). I hope you didn't take the flurry of questions negatively. More than anything, all the poolies just wanted more clarification because it, seemingly, your news came out of nowhere. We all appreciate you frequenting this forum and providing any "insider" information and your perspective on SWA and the airlines industry. Take care and fly safe!
Red Baron
Registered User
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 118
I know many of you have been in the pool a while. I am down at the drain!! The good thing is we are waiting on a GREAT airline. A dose of reality helps to put things in perspective. I hope it does turn around quick, and classes continue sooner than later. I was introduced to this forum by another friend in the pool. It is good to have voices heard and the SWA poolie list as well. I know we all have different situations now, but one day, we will be with the best. Take care and happy flying.
Regards,
Red Baron
Regards,
Red Baron
Re: Monthly Contact
Hi, Rob -- as you seem pretty well "plugged in" to the source, I'll direct a couple of questions to you, but anyone else is free to chime in. I'm not a poolie, but lurk regularly due to my interests 1) on behalf of friends and loved ones, and 2) as a member of the business aviation community, and am wondering about a couple of things.
1) I'm concerned about the issue of individual SWA pilots blacklisting poolies, especially those who have invested significant $$ in their 737 types in reliance on statements by SWA -- I don't see that these SWA pilots (or anyone but the official representative of a former employer, for that matter) are in any way privileged (free) to distribute negative information to SWA regarding these individuals, and are risking some serious liability for defamation. I won't go into the legal elements, but do you know whether the company is indemnifying them for this?
2) Re: keeping current, do you have any sense of whether SWA is aware of the strong hiring prejudices against people with 737 types among the business/general aviation community? I know a number of people having great difficulty getting jobs because 1) they are furloughed, 2) their status as airline applicants was advertised to the entire bizav community by PRIA (records) requests and background checks, and/or 3) they have 737 types. From my travels on the NBAA bulletin boards, there is no secret that these folks are non grata, due to the obvious economic and legal concerns of chief pilots faced with either wasting their FSI/SF training funds or trying to bind newhires to lengthy training contracts. Also, trying to conceal one's status or ratings from prospective employers (as has been suggested on Flightinfo and elsewhere) can result in a quick dismissal or withdrawal of an employment offer, and create a new enemy or negative reference in the industry -- would that be "dishonesty" sufficient to drown a poolie in SWA's book?
3) Well, ok, it's three things. I'm wondering whether SWA applies an ironclad, systematic selection process or whether it uses discretion in creating a diverse class out of civilian/military, younger/older, etc. I would think that delaying the hiring of over-40 candidates because they are over 40, even if the purpose is to create a diverse class, could possibly violate the ADEA. Similarly, intentionally delaying the hiring of ex-military could run afoul of USERRA (veteran's benefits act). Obviously, no poolie is going to risk his chance by bringing a case, but EEOC or DOJ (for the vets) could do it, possibly as a class action.
The interaction of all of the above factors could lead to situations where people who are trying to keep flying while waiting for extended periods could, over time, run into problems with blacklisting or increased exposure to accidents/incidents/certificate actions while flying in more risky short-term jobs.
Hope I'm not picking a fight here -- I think these are fears that may have crossed the minds of some of you before. Thanks, looking forward to replies.
Hi, Rob -- as you seem pretty well "plugged in" to the source, I'll direct a couple of questions to you, but anyone else is free to chime in. I'm not a poolie, but lurk regularly due to my interests 1) on behalf of friends and loved ones, and 2) as a member of the business aviation community, and am wondering about a couple of things.
1) I'm concerned about the issue of individual SWA pilots blacklisting poolies, especially those who have invested significant $$ in their 737 types in reliance on statements by SWA -- I don't see that these SWA pilots (or anyone but the official representative of a former employer, for that matter) are in any way privileged (free) to distribute negative information to SWA regarding these individuals, and are risking some serious liability for defamation. I won't go into the legal elements, but do you know whether the company is indemnifying them for this?
2) Re: keeping current, do you have any sense of whether SWA is aware of the strong hiring prejudices against people with 737 types among the business/general aviation community? I know a number of people having great difficulty getting jobs because 1) they are furloughed, 2) their status as airline applicants was advertised to the entire bizav community by PRIA (records) requests and background checks, and/or 3) they have 737 types. From my travels on the NBAA bulletin boards, there is no secret that these folks are non grata, due to the obvious economic and legal concerns of chief pilots faced with either wasting their FSI/SF training funds or trying to bind newhires to lengthy training contracts. Also, trying to conceal one's status or ratings from prospective employers (as has been suggested on Flightinfo and elsewhere) can result in a quick dismissal or withdrawal of an employment offer, and create a new enemy or negative reference in the industry -- would that be "dishonesty" sufficient to drown a poolie in SWA's book?
3) Well, ok, it's three things. I'm wondering whether SWA applies an ironclad, systematic selection process or whether it uses discretion in creating a diverse class out of civilian/military, younger/older, etc. I would think that delaying the hiring of over-40 candidates because they are over 40, even if the purpose is to create a diverse class, could possibly violate the ADEA. Similarly, intentionally delaying the hiring of ex-military could run afoul of USERRA (veteran's benefits act). Obviously, no poolie is going to risk his chance by bringing a case, but EEOC or DOJ (for the vets) could do it, possibly as a class action.
The interaction of all of the above factors could lead to situations where people who are trying to keep flying while waiting for extended periods could, over time, run into problems with blacklisting or increased exposure to accidents/incidents/certificate actions while flying in more risky short-term jobs.
Hope I'm not picking a fight here -- I think these are fears that may have crossed the minds of some of you before. Thanks, looking forward to replies.
tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
Thanks Rob...
Yes, some of us have made LARGE decisions based on the fact that we were(are) have, and I quote... "successfully completed the application and interview phases at Southwest Airlines."
Due to reasons of anonymity, I can't give exact details. However, I did sell a home & relocated my family to a SWA domicle. It was a sound decision based on the "hope" of being in a SWA class sooner, than later. Still a decision that my wife supports 100%.
Our life is slightly complicated now, due to the wait for a class date. But, WE made the decision to do this and do not regret doing so. We will just have to deal with the life we have created and WHEN my call comes in from a Chief Pilot, the "victory" will be that much sweeter!!!!!
Life has no guarantees, being an aviator/professional pilot has less than normal even.... SO - NO WHINING here, just glad to know that I will be flying the line with the rest of you, someday... at the best airline in the industry!
One more thing.... welcome aboard to all of those who are recipients of the scholarships, you deserve what you have been so fortunate to have won!!!!
Have a great day everyone! Sincerely - Tredding
Yes, some of us have made LARGE decisions based on the fact that we were(are) have, and I quote... "successfully completed the application and interview phases at Southwest Airlines."
Due to reasons of anonymity, I can't give exact details. However, I did sell a home & relocated my family to a SWA domicle. It was a sound decision based on the "hope" of being in a SWA class sooner, than later. Still a decision that my wife supports 100%.
Our life is slightly complicated now, due to the wait for a class date. But, WE made the decision to do this and do not regret doing so. We will just have to deal with the life we have created and WHEN my call comes in from a Chief Pilot, the "victory" will be that much sweeter!!!!!
Life has no guarantees, being an aviator/professional pilot has less than normal even.... SO - NO WHINING here, just glad to know that I will be flying the line with the rest of you, someday... at the best airline in the industry!
One more thing.... welcome aboard to all of those who are recipients of the scholarships, you deserve what you have been so fortunate to have won!!!!
Have a great day everyone! Sincerely - Tredding
T1bubba
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 317
AvLawyer,
You mentioned several of your concerns. Personally I am rather concerned about frivolous lawsuits aimed at my future employer. May I recommend you contact the SWA legal department in Dallas for any inquiries into the hiring process. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to help you.
You mentioned several of your concerns. Personally I am rather concerned about frivolous lawsuits aimed at my future employer. May I recommend you contact the SWA legal department in Dallas for any inquiries into the hiring process. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to help you.
Hi, T1bubba --
I was afraid this would happen -- I'm not trying to get SWA into trouble, just trying to understand how the "pool" thing is being run.
SWA itself was born out of antitrust lawsuits that American and Braniff no doubt thought were "frivolous," but fortunately Herb Kelleher and his team were willing to fight for rights that kept the company alive to later prosper, and it took many years and a lot of money before they won. I have the greatest respect for that achievement, just want to understand how the poolies are being treated now. I'm not looking for clients -- I don't practice employment law. Just worried about my friends. Your info is appreciated -- thanks.
I was afraid this would happen -- I'm not trying to get SWA into trouble, just trying to understand how the "pool" thing is being run.
SWA itself was born out of antitrust lawsuits that American and Braniff no doubt thought were "frivolous," but fortunately Herb Kelleher and his team were willing to fight for rights that kept the company alive to later prosper, and it took many years and a lot of money before they won. I have the greatest respect for that achievement, just want to understand how the poolies are being treated now. I'm not looking for clients -- I don't practice employment law. Just worried about my friends. Your info is appreciated -- thanks.
w8n4swa
...in OAK!
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 185
To all readers
Sorry for the long delay in responding to the comments about the cancellation of Aug classes, been out flying around the system.
All flights were over 122+ capacity. Good sign.
Confirmed what has been on here about the cancellation of "tentative" classes for Aug. No other word on when other classes may begin anew but there are no definitive decisions (at SWA they like to turn on a dime!) for future classes at this time from what I've heard.
I don't have the specifics on why the Aug class(es) were not scheduled but I suspect like others on here (RB & others in the know) there are many reasons, repeating them again doesn't do much for those waiting though.
RB states it correctly on here & you should give great credence to what he says. I & others who work at SWA have also tried to do the same. I've tried to be realistic in my observations & psuedo "predictions" but have always tried to do that with the knowledge that the reader knows that SWA keeps a very close eye on the bottom line & not this web site for making business predictions. I believe that is why most of you are interested in working for SWA. I know you all realize that also. This website is more therapy at times (it was for me when I was wading in the pool) than reality.
I will continue to post what I think is realistic info that may help others like others did for me on here some years back. I have not taken any of the comments made by others as negative toward me or anyone who contributes regularly to the website. It's no fun wading in the pool. I'm still optimistic SWA will continue to grow & hire pilots. I believe we will see new hire classes sometime this fall, as to how many, that is much tougher to say. I'll continue to keep my ear to the ground & let you know what I hear. cheers & God Bless,
Sorry for the long delay in responding to the comments about the cancellation of Aug classes, been out flying around the system.
All flights were over 122+ capacity. Good sign.
Confirmed what has been on here about the cancellation of "tentative" classes for Aug. No other word on when other classes may begin anew but there are no definitive decisions (at SWA they like to turn on a dime!) for future classes at this time from what I've heard.
I don't have the specifics on why the Aug class(es) were not scheduled but I suspect like others on here (RB & others in the know) there are many reasons, repeating them again doesn't do much for those waiting though.
RB states it correctly on here & you should give great credence to what he says. I & others who work at SWA have also tried to do the same. I've tried to be realistic in my observations & psuedo "predictions" but have always tried to do that with the knowledge that the reader knows that SWA keeps a very close eye on the bottom line & not this web site for making business predictions. I believe that is why most of you are interested in working for SWA. I know you all realize that also. This website is more therapy at times (it was for me when I was wading in the pool) than reality.
I will continue to post what I think is realistic info that may help others like others did for me on here some years back. I have not taken any of the comments made by others as negative toward me or anyone who contributes regularly to the website. It's no fun wading in the pool. I'm still optimistic SWA will continue to grow & hire pilots. I believe we will see new hire classes sometime this fall, as to how many, that is much tougher to say. I'll continue to keep my ear to the ground & let you know what I hear. cheers & God Bless,
enigma
good ol boy
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,279
"what's with the bad vibes"
Hey OPIE01,
I feel your frustration, BUT I also feel the need to give you a shot of reality.
Here ya go. UNCERTAINTY, MANIPULATION AND RUMORS, ARE THE ONLY SURE THINGS IN THE CAREER OF AN AIRLINE PILOT.
I have no desire to be mean, nor argumentative, but I would suggest that you look into a different area of aviation for your career choice if you really need positive, certain surroundings in order to feel comfortable.
In this business, you will be: lied to, lied about, misquoted, misconstrued, mislead, misdirected, (deep breath) misplaced, displaced, bumped, furloughed, merged, stapled(to the bottom), etc,etc, etc. If you just ignore it all and focus on the positive aspects of sitting in the tip of the arrow, you'll do fine. If you let it bug you, you'll get ulcers and worse.
Keep your chin up, and never take anything personally.
regards
8N
Hey OPIE01,
I feel your frustration, BUT I also feel the need to give you a shot of reality.
Here ya go. UNCERTAINTY, MANIPULATION AND RUMORS, ARE THE ONLY SURE THINGS IN THE CAREER OF AN AIRLINE PILOT.
I have no desire to be mean, nor argumentative, but I would suggest that you look into a different area of aviation for your career choice if you really need positive, certain surroundings in order to feel comfortable.
In this business, you will be: lied to, lied about, misquoted, misconstrued, mislead, misdirected, (deep breath) misplaced, displaced, bumped, furloughed, merged, stapled(to the bottom), etc,etc, etc. If you just ignore it all and focus on the positive aspects of sitting in the tip of the arrow, you'll do fine. If you let it bug you, you'll get ulcers and worse.
Keep your chin up, and never take anything personally.
regards
8N
RJones
Rico SWAFO
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2001
- Posts
- 374
Fellow poolies,
IÕve been watching this thread and many others for some time now and I find myself, due to my current employment situation, on this site almost all the time looking for any rumors of movement at Southwest and in the pool...therapy I guess.
For all of us here in the pool and the ones wishing to join us we are frothing at the mouth to finally realize our dreams of flying for Southwest and find our emotions spilling out on the threads and replies. Personally, I canÕt wait to get started, but I have to keep my emotions in check and hang on and wait.
When I read RBÕs reply to this thread I was devastated. I was really hoping the top 40 of us in the pool would be in a class in August possibly September and like he and others have noted, I have made plans around this projection.
We certainly donÕt need to go the route AvLawyer mentions, not sure thatÕs all that productive. What we need to do here is hang on and wait this out. BTW, I just saw something about Embry Riddle reporting 10,000 pilots are needed by the end of 2003? anyone else hear or see this?
So guys and gals lets hang on and wait this out, and Chase, thanks for your input, maybe this fall, thatÕd be cool.
RJ
IÕve been watching this thread and many others for some time now and I find myself, due to my current employment situation, on this site almost all the time looking for any rumors of movement at Southwest and in the pool...therapy I guess.
For all of us here in the pool and the ones wishing to join us we are frothing at the mouth to finally realize our dreams of flying for Southwest and find our emotions spilling out on the threads and replies. Personally, I canÕt wait to get started, but I have to keep my emotions in check and hang on and wait.
When I read RBÕs reply to this thread I was devastated. I was really hoping the top 40 of us in the pool would be in a class in August possibly September and like he and others have noted, I have made plans around this projection.
We certainly donÕt need to go the route AvLawyer mentions, not sure thatÕs all that productive. What we need to do here is hang on and wait this out. BTW, I just saw something about Embry Riddle reporting 10,000 pilots are needed by the end of 2003? anyone else hear or see this?
So guys and gals lets hang on and wait this out, and Chase, thanks for your input, maybe this fall, thatÕd be cool.
RJ
Aviation School's
RJ...
Do you really expect Embry Riddle A.U. to tell the truth ???
They are in the business of educating and training youngsters to fly and work up to the bigs... Truth be known I bet the 10K number is inflated except for the Cessna 150 flight schools types. Now don't get me wrong we all started there but lets get serious about the state of the economy and what has happened at the Major Airlines in the past 18 months... 9-11 just exacerbated a seriously needed econmic adjustment. I firmly believe that things will be better in the long run. However; as a guy who has just passed the 20 year mark with the USAF I was hoping for a nice transition to SWA as an FO... Now I get to work on my ability to be patient. I like the rest hope that SWA is being cleverly coy placing the pieces of a major growth push in place and then kicking the competitions collective butt again...
"Krunch"
"It is a great thing to be free"
RJ...
Do you really expect Embry Riddle A.U. to tell the truth ???
They are in the business of educating and training youngsters to fly and work up to the bigs... Truth be known I bet the 10K number is inflated except for the Cessna 150 flight schools types. Now don't get me wrong we all started there but lets get serious about the state of the economy and what has happened at the Major Airlines in the past 18 months... 9-11 just exacerbated a seriously needed econmic adjustment. I firmly believe that things will be better in the long run. However; as a guy who has just passed the 20 year mark with the USAF I was hoping for a nice transition to SWA as an FO... Now I get to work on my ability to be patient. I like the rest hope that SWA is being cleverly coy placing the pieces of a major growth push in place and then kicking the competitions collective butt again...
"Krunch"
"It is a great thing to be free"
RightBettor
Betting "Don't" these day
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 308
Yup!!
Krunch,
My sentiments exactly. I always got a kick out of these flight schools touting the "looming pilot shortage." Yeah, right. The airlines are facing a pilot shortage about as bad as Hollywood needs actors!! Oh, and people in Hell want a glass of ice water 'cause it hasn't frozen over yet!!
Krunch,
My sentiments exactly. I always got a kick out of these flight schools touting the "looming pilot shortage." Yeah, right. The airlines are facing a pilot shortage about as bad as Hollywood needs actors!! Oh, and people in Hell want a glass of ice water 'cause it hasn't frozen over yet!!
RJones
Rico SWAFO
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2001
- Posts
- 374
Slug, I'm not clear what's up with this computer...looks ok to me.
Hey Krunch, I agree. I was sitting across the room busy when someone shouted that out, not clear what web site that was. Like you said, I think it will turn around but will take a while to do so. Meantime we have to be patient.
RJ
Hey Krunch, I agree. I was sitting across the room busy when someone shouted that out, not clear what web site that was. Like you said, I think it will turn around but will take a while to do so. Meantime we have to be patient.
RJ
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