SWA being called PREDATORY of others' misfortune

[Flopgut]

I hear new employees lament that they will never enjoy the life their predecessors had pre-deregulation, but most of them wouldn't have been able to get a job in the much smaller airline industry anyway.

Jobs? Perhaps. Careers? Certainly not.

Our economy provides aerospace the chance to lead the world in: Air frieght, aircraft manufacturing (commercial and bizjet), and fractional. Even this economy's LCC do well. But what about legacies? With all the regulation trained on them in this supposed de-regulated environment they've been excluded from doing the same. I don't think we can ascertain what the career would have been, or how big it would have been, the further we go. But I think these other aerospace sectors give us a glimpse. And I vehemently believe it is hardly blastphemy to point out that SWA has perhaps not been the greatest airline ever. It's just an opinion guys.

 

[nimtz]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

Having just done RNP approach training, I'm really curious to hear how Southwest will be the 'lead' RNP airline within the next 36 months? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

 

[firstthird]

I'm not sure that SWA will ever lead anything where technology is concerned, but, apparently we've hired some technical pilots from Alaska to implement the 'super' RNP that Alaska is doing up there down here in the lower 48. West Jet is also doing some of those approaches above the border, but so far, there are none in the lower 48.

I doubt we'll be 'leading' in that we can't even do gps overlays or gps T's or constant rate approaches yet. But supposedly we're going to get there with the whole fleet (even the 300's) sometime around 2013 (just far enough in the future to be plausible and for the guilty parties that started all of this to be safely retired before any 'issues' come up)

the name is stupid, RNP. most planes already have ANP and RNP and Rnav approaches. but apparently this is what Alaska calls it's super RNAV arrivals, the ones with curving final approach segments, rolling wings level at 300 feet, ILS mins, that kind of stuff. far beyond any current GPS approach in the lower 48.

So, in summary, I'm not sure I buy the fact that we'll be LEADING anything but supposedly we are going to get there. And since no one is doing this 'RNP' in the lower 48, I doubt CAL is either. I think the terminology confuses many, including me. But a regular RNAV approach (LNAV/VNAV) is NOT RNP as these Alaska technical pilot guys define it.

 

[firstthird]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

 

[Flopgut]

CAL lands North and South in Quito, Ecuador via RNP approaches.

 

[nimtz]

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

CAL just started sim training on domestic RNP, so everyone should be qual'ed in a year. We've been doing them down in Quito for sometime, but that's special airport. Now as far as I know, as long as the other guy is qualified then off you go.

Your right that the terminology is a pain, but essentially RNP to me means lower mins and position verification comes from the box only. The difference comes down to RNAV (GPS) vs RNAV (RNP) approach. GPS approaches can't be fancy, but RNP gives you the lower mins and the curved segments that you mentioned.

The company doesn't issue us every RNP approach, so there are few places where you could actually do one. Don't have my charts with me, but they only practical one is 28R in SFO instead of the Tiptoe Visual. There might be more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

They did right by hiring the Alaska guys since they pretty much invented this alphabet soup. It will take a good while though to get a/t and vnav pounded into everyone's head. That all has to be smooth before getting into the RNP element. Hence why I was questioning the 'leader' remark. Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

 

[MountainFreak]

No, but John Galt was. That's the whole point of bringing his name up. The character John Galt had no time for people who thought that the successful should share their success with the mediocre and inept. The thrust of this thread is "If SWA was managed as poorly as the other airlines, they'd be losing money too." Well....yeah, but they're not. They're succeeding because they're getting it right. More power to 'em.

Atlas Shrugged is one of my favorites, it is a classic. It is also fiction.
Saying we should live in John Galt's world is like saying we should live in a Hobbit-topia because we like Lord of the Rings.

Anyway, as far as predatory pricing, it is all in how the regulators define it. What if the airline is making money, but losing on that city-pair where they are trying to put out Frontier?
What about back in the day, if AA is making money on the international routes, but losing money out of Dallas in order to put out Braniff? Do fuel hedges count, or do they have to be making money on an operational basis? I don't know, and I doubt any of us know how the current regulators define it.

This is all talking point though, because even if SW is dumping seats (I think they are walking a fine line), no one is going to stop them. Like you said, they are too well run!

 

[firstthird]

Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

Supposedly the Alaska guys are going to design approaches into places like MDW where we could use the wind favored runway all the time regardless of ORD's runways if we had a shorter final segment. or maybe as a replacement for visuals at some of our mountainous airports (RNO, BUR, ABQ). and for the single engine climb out procedures too.

but, you're right, we've got to master a/t and LNAV/VNAV first; and seeing as autobrakes only took us 3 years, I don't have super high hopes.

I'm not surprised that CAL is going to be 4 or so years in front of us. Wonder when our training dept will wake up and realize that we're not 'industry leading' in any technology endeavor. not that there is anything wrong with that, just seems juvenile to run around talking about industry leading this or that when in fact we're still flying 700s like they were 1960's airplanes.

 

[bouttime]

Now I get it. Clever management of a business is predatory while ineffectual management is victimhood.

Who is John Galt?

Very wise words! SW has found its own "Reardan Metal"

 

[CA1900]

If you want to see what RNP can do, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHF9rPWFXzw

It's a 95-mile, serpentine approach to an airport in China that's surrounded by mountains. Truly impressive.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If there had been one commercial use D-FW airport, or perfectly equal use of multiple D-FW airports, there would have been no controversy and no Wright Amendment. AA would be better off, probably Braniff and even Legend still flying. But there would be no SWA. Without SWA, de-regulation is a failure. That should be abundantly clear.

Big "if" that arguement is based on....lots of "if"s in history...too many to cover here anyway....

Besides...what you mentioned is all ancient history. IF someone is still hanging on to a single airport for the DFW area...they need a new hobby.

Harding Lawrence and AA played a bigger part in Braniff's demise than SWA did....

...in fact, it was Harding Lawrence's decisions that put Braniff in the weak financial position it found itself in 1981/82.

Braniff even took SWA's CEO in 1982, Howard Putnam, since he had all kinds of airline management experience....that allowed the SWA board to elect Herb to be the CEO of SWA. Up until then, Herb was just SWA's attorney...not too much airline menagement experience.

 

[SplitBar]

One thing I think we all can agree on is that when the hedges run out and it's a level playing field, SWA will have to reduce costs to compete.

When the hedges run out in a few years SWA will be hurting like everyone else.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Southwest is an airline that puts its employees first. Wow, what an idea. You wouldn't see Southwest aquire another airline and then standby while it's original employees got screwed now would you?

You don't know SWA. SWA luv is a myth. It existed in the past but not today.

SWA fires pilots, sends them home with weeks off at a time, and screws people over without a second thought.

I recently flew with an FA who quit SWA in 1998. He quit after being involved in an aircraft incident that SWA blamed on the crew when the crew had nothing to do without the cause of the problem.

A -200 was picked up from mx. After takeoff the crew had a dual hyd failure and landed under manual reversion at an off route airport. They stopped the airplane with the accumulator. It was hot outside. The cabin temp could not be controlled on the ground. The captain decided to open the doors without activating the slides during the prolong sitting on the aircraft AFTER the situation had been STABILIZED. While the doors where open the brakes caught on fire. The doors slides were activated and the plane was evacuated.

The crew got four months off while they were fired and rehired. The crew acted as hero's not zero's in getting a wound a/c MX screwed up back on the ground. But with SWA luv they were FIRED.

SWA LUV- Yea Right! And there are many other examples just like this one of SWA NOT backing up its crews actions in difficult situations.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

“Our People are our single greatest strength and our most enduring longterm competitive advantage.”
- Gary Kelly, CEO Southwest Airlines

But Gary will fire the first guy who screws up. He's a bottom line man, and if you mess with the bottom line don't let the door hit you in the bottom on the way out!

Every CEO says this type of crap!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You don't know SWA. SWA luv is a myth. It existed in the past but not today

I don't know what base you are flying out of....but a buddy of mine at SWA had his father pass away suddenly.

Not only did he get the usual brevement leave specified in the contract, but, also got positive space back home from where he was on a trip.

Then, a week later ( a day before his normal 3 day trip) he gets a call from the base chief pilot, asking how things are going...next thing you know, the Chief is telling this guy not to show up for his trip...to take care of his family....but he will also get paid for it....waaaayyyy outside of what the contract calls for.

LUV myth?

Another guy, called up to active duty gets regular "care packages" from SWA, while his tent mates are getting furlough notices from their airlines...BTW...he generously shared the contents of thohse "Care packages" with his tent mates.

LUV myth???

And I too have my story...a bit too personal to talk about here...but if you want to believe that the LUV is gone...so be it...

...I've had the hand of help extended to me and my family while employed here....and I know at my old legacy employer....it would've never happened.

LUV myth? I don't think so.

 

[reepicheep]

When the hedges run out in a few years SWA will be hurting like everyone else.

In a few years 25% of the current industry will be gone and Southwest will be able to raise their prices.

This is just the most recent "comeuppance" that's allegedly going to doom Southwest. First it was all the delays in the northeast when they went into BWI, then deicing costs in MDW, after 911 all the new security measures were gonna mean the end of 20-minute turns. They'll be fine, as long as they don't do something really stupid like buy part of usair.

 

[waveflyer]

Very wise words! SW has found its own "Reardan Metal"

you guys are the only one's who understand when i say the enemy are the corrupt-- on either side of the poverty line-- it's 'looters' that are the problem... it should make you nervous when the word 'productive' becomes a curse word

 

[Quimby]

Along the lines of this thread title...

Is what AirTran is doing in MKE to Midwest predatory? No one's brought this up.

 

[Jet41]

No offense to anyone on this post but I see hipocracy. In alot of ways what WN is doing to Frontier in DEN what Wal-Mart does to Middle-America or as a vulture does to a dying racoon. As pilots we justify it because we admire pilots compensation in that company and that WN has been succesful in its ventures. We usually blame the other company WN competes with as if WN has done no wrong. I disagree with that argument. WN just hits the coup de grace. It would be interesting if NOW a days they would find their OWN routes instead of flying routes to run other companies to the ground. Then again that what competition is all about. I hear regional guys hating CHQ or Skywest for doing the same thing WN does but they think WN is ok because they pay their pilots better. While I hope my current company keeps growing I would hate for the growth of my company to consist of the lay off of friends and former colleages. Just an opinion.

Southwest is only taking advantage of opportunities created by others. To not do so would be a disservice to it employee's and stock holders. They didn't create $145 a barrel, yet though forethought and planning they are able to take advantage of an opportunity presented buy the current situation. Good for them, too bad others didn't do the same. You Wal-Mart comparison is ridicules. Wal-Mart pays some of the lowest wages in their industry, while Southwest pays some of the highest in theirs.

 

[Flopgut]

Big "if" that arguement is based on....lots of "if"s in history...too many to cover here anyway....

Besides...what you mentioned is all ancient history. IF someone is still hanging on to a single airport for the DFW area...they need a new hobby.

Harding Lawrence and AA played a bigger part in Braniff's demise than SWA did....

...in fact, it was Harding Lawrence's decisions that put Braniff in the weak financial position it found itself in 1981/82.

Braniff even took SWA's CEO in 1982, Howard Putnam, since he had all kinds of airline management experience....that allowed the SWA board to elect Herb to be the CEO of SWA. Up until then, Herb was just SWA's attorney...not too much airline menagement experience.

It's not that big an "if" at all. Look at the Legend Airlines life cycle. They thought they could show up in the competitive vacuum of Love Field and find the same deal SWA got. They were wrong. AMR put the hurt on them. That is exactly what Braniff had in mind for SWA, until SWA got a boost outside the traditional marketplace. (BTW: if Legend had started with resources equivilent to what it would have required for a straight up fight with with AMR, they would have probably made it.)

By Alfred Kahn's own admission SWA is the single bright spot in deregulation's wake.

So, where's that leave us? We'd better make some wholesale changes in transportation policy IMHO.

 

[Andy Neill]

So, where's that leave us? We'd better make some wholesale changes in transportation policy IMHO.

....such as....?

 

[Mach 80]

>>>Wal-Mart pays some of the lowest wages in their industry,..<<<<

Many people who work at Wal-Mart are unqualified for any other work and many would otherwise be on welfare or simply not contributing anything to their family's financial well being. It may not be the highest paid job, but Wal-Mart has helped thousands of people have a much better life, both by employing so many and making things affordable for people who otherwise might not be able to buy clothes, shoes, and food for their families.

 

[Flopgut]

....such as....?

Reregulate. Or, at least revisit the RLA.

 

[waveflyer]

>>>Wal-Mart pays some of the lowest wages in their industry,..<<<<

Many people who work at Wal-Mart are unqualified for any other work and many would otherwise be on welfare or simply not contributing anything to their family's financial well being. It may not be the highest paid job, but Wal-Mart has helped thousands of people have a much better life, both by employing so many and making things affordable for people who otherwise might not be able to buy clothes, shoes, and food for their families.

sounds like a guy who doesn't work at wal-mart.
or a guy who wasn't flushed out of business by cheap, no labor law asia... but who cares about their kids, around the world, right? Also sounds like a guy who doesn't pay taxes in california and watch as the biggest retailer in the world gets subsidized health care on your dime.

Yeah- stand up company that wal-mart. I'm all for big business-- that doesn't mean all big-business lack corruption.... paid for, "legal" corruption is the WORST kind.

 

[Mach 80]

If there are high unemployment rates in a country and some of the people are earning an average of a $1 a day and some company comes in with a factory and gets those people off the street and earning $3 a day and they can now feed their families much better, their lives have improved dramaticaly. Much better off with the factories than not.

Otherwise, the US is a capitalistic competitive economy whether you like it or not.

 

[waveflyer]

If there are high unemployment rates in a country and some of the people are earning an average of a $1 a day and some company comes in with a factory and gets those people off the street and earning $3 a day and they can now feed their families much better, their lives have improved dramaticaly. Much better off with the factories than not.

Otherwise, the US is a capitalistic competitive economy whether you like it or not.

and you are very simplistic--

like saying if my owner only whips me 3 times a day that i should be thankful b/c my last whipped me 7.

glad the american dream has worked for you-- but i'm not anti-capitalist if i point out how it hasn't worked for others due to corruption

 

[LuckyDad]

Mach...
typically, wages don't "come up" to an arbitrary $3, as in your example, If the going rate for an unskilled laborer is $1/day, then in comes the new factory and pays the same. Thats why they build there. Companies unfortunately aren't trying to up the standard of living in India, Malysia, or where ever, they are trying to sell cheap skivvies in Arkansas. You might also revisit your thinking on Wal-Mart, since they have gained a lot of exposure for keeping employees at part time, to exclude the company from having to pay benifits on those same employees.