Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
SWA 2Q financial report...
- Thread starter w8n4swa
- Start date
- Watchers 11
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
You're not alone
V70T5,
Just wanted to let you know that your opinion is widely held. Don't let the SW guys (or coolaide drinking poolies) that hang out on this board gang up on you. It seems anyone who dares mention that SW employees are underpaid or that working for SW is not necessarily a Nirvana gets attacked. I have a lot of friends at SW and not all of them see the world as wonderfully as those on this board.
Let's keep the big picture here. Bottom line is SW guys work harder and make less and that is why SW is profitable. Chase sounds like a reasonable guy, and he is correct that the consumer decides what they will pay for a fare. After all, why would anyone pay 150 bucks on UAL to get across the country when they can pay 89 on SW. You can't even drive a car and compete with the fares that are out there right now. Fares are selling at a 15-year low and - because of the narrow margins that airlines work on - it doesn't take a lot to lose money.
If you like to work harder for less by convicing yourself that you will be "happier" in your job, that is your prerogative. News flash: not everyone is miserable at other airlines. But realize that many in this industry see SW pilot wages as lowering the bar for all of us as professional airline pilots. (For the record, I'm not furloughed and don't work for one of SW's competitors). I'll now climb into my fox hole for the incoming barrage....
Regards, WG
V70T5,
Just wanted to let you know that your opinion is widely held. Don't let the SW guys (or coolaide drinking poolies) that hang out on this board gang up on you. It seems anyone who dares mention that SW employees are underpaid or that working for SW is not necessarily a Nirvana gets attacked. I have a lot of friends at SW and not all of them see the world as wonderfully as those on this board.
Let's keep the big picture here. Bottom line is SW guys work harder and make less and that is why SW is profitable. Chase sounds like a reasonable guy, and he is correct that the consumer decides what they will pay for a fare. After all, why would anyone pay 150 bucks on UAL to get across the country when they can pay 89 on SW. You can't even drive a car and compete with the fares that are out there right now. Fares are selling at a 15-year low and - because of the narrow margins that airlines work on - it doesn't take a lot to lose money.
If you like to work harder for less by convicing yourself that you will be "happier" in your job, that is your prerogative. News flash: not everyone is miserable at other airlines. But realize that many in this industry see SW pilot wages as lowering the bar for all of us as professional airline pilots. (For the record, I'm not furloughed and don't work for one of SW's competitors). I'll now climb into my fox hole for the incoming barrage....
Regards, WG
w8n4swa
...in OAK!
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 185
Wise Guy,
No need to crawl into a foxhole...you simply pointed out the essence of what makes Southwest Airlines unique.
Personally, I'd rather be working with a group of happy people...even if it's a few bucks less than others...if this means I can keep my job when others may not.
This is a changing world and I'd say we're in the middle of a changing airline industry.
$102 million 2Q profit....smells like roses.
No need to crawl into a foxhole...you simply pointed out the essence of what makes Southwest Airlines unique.
Personally, I'd rather be working with a group of happy people...even if it's a few bucks less than others...if this means I can keep my job when others may not.
This is a changing world and I'd say we're in the middle of a changing airline industry.
$102 million 2Q profit....smells like roses.
okay...Wise Guy
I applied at SWA three years ago because I wanted job security. I figured (looking back 30 years) that I could make a comfortable living, and would have the best chance of NOT getting furloughed. It's worked out so far, and no one is bullet proof, but I didn't come here to lower the bar on wages for the rest of the industry. In fact, I didn't even think about it. Guess I owe you an apology, huh? NOT!
I applied at SWA three years ago because I wanted job security. I figured (looking back 30 years) that I could make a comfortable living, and would have the best chance of NOT getting furloughed. It's worked out so far, and no one is bullet proof, but I didn't come here to lower the bar on wages for the rest of the industry. In fact, I didn't even think about it. Guess I owe you an apology, huh? NOT!
OK Guys
w8n4swa,
Glad your happy, but so are most of the guys I know flying airplanes at majors. I agree this is a changing industry and the future will be interesting. A $102 million profit is great, but it mostly came out of your paycheck. If SW had an A plan, a B plan, and industry average wages would there be a profit. Don't know, just points to ponder.
Maynard,
As far as job security goes, wouldn't UPS or FedEx also be good options. I'm sure you didn't go to SW to lower the bar on wages. In fact, I'm sure you didn't even think about it. I'm not looking for an apology, I just don't think you guys should be so defensive when we say you are under-compensated. Don't get me wrong SW has a good business model and training costs are very low, etc, etc. But there is no denying that low cost carriers hurt industry wages in the big scheme of things.
Faternally, WG
w8n4swa,
Glad your happy, but so are most of the guys I know flying airplanes at majors. I agree this is a changing industry and the future will be interesting. A $102 million profit is great, but it mostly came out of your paycheck. If SW had an A plan, a B plan, and industry average wages would there be a profit. Don't know, just points to ponder.
Maynard,
As far as job security goes, wouldn't UPS or FedEx also be good options. I'm sure you didn't go to SW to lower the bar on wages. In fact, I'm sure you didn't even think about it. I'm not looking for an apology, I just don't think you guys should be so defensive when we say you are under-compensated. Don't get me wrong SW has a good business model and training costs are very low, etc, etc. But there is no denying that low cost carriers hurt industry wages in the big scheme of things.
Faternally, WG
canyonblue
Everyone loves Southwest
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,314
Wise Guy said:
**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I really tried to stay out of this one but listening to clueless banter from these two I just had to respond.
First as a member of a negotiations commitee (ALPA) at my former Airline I was educated by ALPA National Department heads as to what was attainable and what was not.
A & B Funds: Never, NO WAY, Not even if you gave in to a concession to get it. Too musk at risk for the Airlines in terms of manageing and projecting the funds worth. The money must be set aside and reviewed by an Actuary. Many Airlines are now faced with decisions of possible Bankruptcy due to having to make the fund payments. Don't know of any POST Deregulation Airline to get one.
Second, Under Compensated, well when I turn 60 and retire I will know if I was under compensated no sooner, no later. I don't measure my salary against my friends at other majors, thats probably good since my good friends are furloughed by those "great" carriers. I relalized what the pay and work structure was at SWA before I even applied.
Third, No Airline hurts Industry pay scales but themselves. Making idiotic mergers to trying to change your niche has done nothing but hurt these Airlines and in turn hurt the Pilot groups who continuely have to bail out management. SWA does not have the luxury of a 747 crossing the Pacific from which to shrare wages. A DC9 pilot at NWA flies a 100 seat Aircraft while a 747 Pilot flies a 400 seat Aircraft. Does he make 4 times as much? NO, because the revenues are spread amongst the pilot group. SWA's Industry is Domestic single Aircraft flying. I was always for raising the bar, I just don't know where that bar will be in the next few years. I'm never defensive about being "under compensated", I just don't want to hear about it from someone who doesn't write my checks.
???????
Canyon Blue,
Not sure I made sense of all of that.
A&B Funds: I assume you are talking about the A Plan (defined benefit) when you mention that an actuary must constantly review the plan and that the obligation to meet A Plan commitments ends up hurting companies. While A Plan commitments may be difficult to project, which airline today is in bankruptcy solely because of its A Plan commitments?
Under-compensation: It's arguable that the majors have furloughed and RJ fleets have exploded solely because they have to compete with low-cost carriers. I am not criticizing anyone's decision to fly for SWA (why do you guys get so defensive?). I'm simply pointing out that the very presence of low-cost carriers fundamentally changes the dynamics of the industry, including average pilot wages.
Third: You lost me on the merger stuff, but I still stick to my original point (I'm on your side here) that you guys deserve better pay. Saying that you'll never have a retirement plan beyond a 401k because it's too expensive for the airline definitely seems to me to be selling yourself short. No reason why the company can't at least provide you with a B Fund (defined contribution). No need for actuaries; no chance of out-of-control, unpredictable future costs. That would at least get you half way to where everyone else is.
If you want to work harder for less, that's your prerogative. Just recognize it has an affect on the entire industry, which means it negatively affects your peers at other airlines and the pilot profession overall. In the end, you end up hurting yourself.
Canyon Blue,
Not sure I made sense of all of that.
A&B Funds: I assume you are talking about the A Plan (defined benefit) when you mention that an actuary must constantly review the plan and that the obligation to meet A Plan commitments ends up hurting companies. While A Plan commitments may be difficult to project, which airline today is in bankruptcy solely because of its A Plan commitments?
Under-compensation: It's arguable that the majors have furloughed and RJ fleets have exploded solely because they have to compete with low-cost carriers. I am not criticizing anyone's decision to fly for SWA (why do you guys get so defensive?). I'm simply pointing out that the very presence of low-cost carriers fundamentally changes the dynamics of the industry, including average pilot wages.
Third: You lost me on the merger stuff, but I still stick to my original point (I'm on your side here) that you guys deserve better pay. Saying that you'll never have a retirement plan beyond a 401k because it's too expensive for the airline definitely seems to me to be selling yourself short. No reason why the company can't at least provide you with a B Fund (defined contribution). No need for actuaries; no chance of out-of-control, unpredictable future costs. That would at least get you half way to where everyone else is.
If you want to work harder for less, that's your prerogative. Just recognize it has an affect on the entire industry, which means it negatively affects your peers at other airlines and the pilot profession overall. In the end, you end up hurting yourself.
Meister Brau
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
- Posts
- 15
tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
Once again....
There is a place for all of us on this wonderful place we know as Earth...
All of those who have made the personal decision to accept all that IS SWA are rightfully happy and are glad to be where they(we) are.
On the "other" side are those to desire to be paid at the absolute TOP of the scale.
This ongoing (endless??) debate reminds me of my days as a young musician..... (bear with me here)
You could play in bars 3-4 nights a week as an independent... steady work, paid in cash, but you did it for $25-50 per night. OR, you could join the union, get paid scale, have taxes taken out and get $100-150 a night. To each his own..... steady, regurlar work at a lower wage, or BIG money with some gaps in between?
Once again - the C H O I C E is up to the individual, live with it - or chose to do something else with your LIFE.
Most importantly, enjoy your self & look forward tro getting out of bed each day - like my signature sez.......
Good night everone, hope tomorrow bring you what you dream for!!! Tredding
There is a place for all of us on this wonderful place we know as Earth...
All of those who have made the personal decision to accept all that IS SWA are rightfully happy and are glad to be where they(we) are.
On the "other" side are those to desire to be paid at the absolute TOP of the scale.
This ongoing (endless??) debate reminds me of my days as a young musician..... (bear with me here)
You could play in bars 3-4 nights a week as an independent... steady work, paid in cash, but you did it for $25-50 per night. OR, you could join the union, get paid scale, have taxes taken out and get $100-150 a night. To each his own..... steady, regurlar work at a lower wage, or BIG money with some gaps in between?
Once again - the C H O I C E is up to the individual, live with it - or chose to do something else with your LIFE.
Most importantly, enjoy your self & look forward tro getting out of bed each day - like my signature sez.......
Good night everone, hope tomorrow bring you what you dream for!!! Tredding
Wise Guys says- If you want to work harder for less, that's your prerogative. Just recognize it has an affect on the entire industry, which means it negatively affects your peers at other airlines and the pilot profession overall. In the end, you end up hurting yourself.
The biggest thing affecting most of SW pilots peers is greed. In the end greed ends up affecting those that are greedy. If every airline had equal pay that doesnt mean the public would just "suck it up" and pay the fare neccessary to support the cost structure. People are not flying as much these days-leasure travellers and business alike. Flying somewhere is not a neccessity for most people. Many will jump in the car or not go at all. "Raising the bar" will not work. The market determines what cost structure it will bear. SW and its pilots apparently understand this. In the end, many major airline pilot contracts have ended up hurting themselves.
The biggest thing affecting most of SW pilots peers is greed. In the end greed ends up affecting those that are greedy. If every airline had equal pay that doesnt mean the public would just "suck it up" and pay the fare neccessary to support the cost structure. People are not flying as much these days-leasure travellers and business alike. Flying somewhere is not a neccessity for most people. Many will jump in the car or not go at all. "Raising the bar" will not work. The market determines what cost structure it will bear. SW and its pilots apparently understand this. In the end, many major airline pilot contracts have ended up hurting themselves.
tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
SWA_Spouse
New member
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2002
- Posts
- 2
I find it hard to understand all these comments from NON-SWA Pilots about salaries being below "Industry Standard".
"Industry Standard" may be higher than SWA Pilot Salaries, however, SWA is and has been the only Major Airline that has made a profit since existance. Working for "Below Industry Standard" seems to be working for SWA and maybe if all these other airlines would cut their pilots pay a bit they too could produce a profit!! All our friends hired with Airlines paying "Industry Standard" within the last 2 years are currently on the street!!
"Industry Standard" may be higher than SWA Pilot Salaries, however, SWA is and has been the only Major Airline that has made a profit since existance. Working for "Below Industry Standard" seems to be working for SWA and maybe if all these other airlines would cut their pilots pay a bit they too could produce a profit!! All our friends hired with Airlines paying "Industry Standard" within the last 2 years are currently on the street!!
tredding@swa
SWA F/O
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 294
good point
Nice observation spouse person..... perhaps people who aspire to work for a "major" airline have a bit of a problem seeing the BIG picture at SWA???
Like another member so regularly states... "hire for attitude, train for proficiency".....
Waiting to evolve from the pool, soon?? tredding
Nice observation spouse person..... perhaps people who aspire to work for a "major" airline have a bit of a problem seeing the BIG picture at SWA???
Like another member so regularly states... "hire for attitude, train for proficiency".....
Waiting to evolve from the pool, soon?? tredding
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 3,643
Wise guy makes some good points here about pilots all being some kind of a brotherhood, and when one company who owns a major segment of the industry accepts lower wages/higher productivity it hurts every one in the long run, cause if you don't watch out AMR and others will re-vamp into true low cost carriers without retirement plans and good work rules, and before you know it we'll all be bidding our wages down instead of up!
Anyway, I'm on an internet cafe machine here in Coeur D' Alene, ID paying $10/hr, so I'm gonna go off, read the WSJ and enjoy my 4 days here at the resort.....
Maybe I'll check back and see just how long this thread is gonna get tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm on an internet cafe machine here in Coeur D' Alene, ID paying $10/hr, so I'm gonna go off, read the WSJ and enjoy my 4 days here at the resort.....
Maybe I'll check back and see just how long this thread is gonna get tomorrow.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
