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SWA 2006 New Hire Pilot Demograhpics
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How many times are we going to have the military/civilian argument. It just makes everyone look so inexperienced. Anybody who has flown the line for a while should know that the tool you flew with today, is just the tool you flew with today. Where they came from doesn't matter. You just have to shrug it off. It's like the guy who gets on the controller for screwing up, or rips on some other pilot for not flipping the switch, or blocking someone. They make a comment like they have never done stuff like that before. Show some experience. Act like you have been there before. Rant off!
Go Salukis!!
Go Salukis!!
out of the 6 guys that nade it thru the db with me i think 3-4 are military.RedDog,
I 100% agree with you. SWA/FO is just one of those dude/dudettes that will always believe that the only reason we are in the guard/reserve is for the part time $ and retirement, and nothing we say will change their minds. Their simple claim is that if we were that patriotic then why did we leave active duty? The answer of years of non-flying staff/ship's company/FAC jobs, etc. in the last 10 years of a 20-year career fall on deaf ears. The potential risk of being less competitive for a post-retirement flying job after driving a desk for many years is also ignored. Our peers like SWA/FO simply believe that we scam.
Granted, there a certainly those handful of scammers that give us all a bad name, but to paint everyone with the same brush is just wrong. Unfortunately, it seems like there are those like SWA/FO that wind up in positions of leadership within flight ops of our airlines. Sounds like your OAK CP's might be an example.
On a related note, I read a few months ago about a national guardsman/Southwest ramp agent from MCI who was killed in combat in the desert. He was a pretty senior NCO who could have retired years ago, but he continued to serve for personal and patriotic reasons. I wonder if his fellow rampers felt like SWA/FO and resented his "working his plan" over the years as he had to drop shifts and work his ramp schedule around his military service? Did they also think he was just "double-dipping" for the money and using USERRA to his advantage? My guess is no, that they were proud of him, his service and his sacrifice and they were saddened by his loss in the line of duty.
Thankfully, I do believe that people like SWA/FO are in the minority. Hopefully you won't have to fly with him/her when the name changes to SWA/CA
Back to the original reason for my response here to the 2006 hiring stats at SWA. I was just wondering out loud if there is more to the story, i.e. employers are shying away from hiring guard/reserve applicants due to potential future military leave conflict. This has been documented with some companies ("just the facts.."), could this be the case with pilot hiring? Illegal but hard to prove as long as everyone goes through the same interview process. The hiring committee does not have to say why.
Just my two cents. Thanks for your service RedDog and my comments are not meant to bash Southwest, just wondering if there is a change in hiring philosophy going on in the industry due to the military's extensive use of guard/reserve in the past few years.
Ben
Let me ask you a question if you are so patriotic why not stay in the military for the long haul. I'm not talking 20 years I am talking 30-40 years, strive to become a general or something. If you are so patriotic then you shouldn't have to be concerned with how marketable you are when you get out. Please Please don't get me wrong. I support our military folks! This is just a question.why reserve, guard duty justb stay in and make it a long term career.
peter185
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pilotyip
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Wow reservists are taking a beating, aren't we? I am a retired reservist, who spent 11 years on active duty and another 15 in the reserves. Why did I get out, I liked the active mission and the people, but the BS of the active military and the extended family separation as your kids are growing up, can start to weigh on you. But I did love serving my country and joined the reserves. I gave up a great deal of my free time to maintain my operational readiness as a P-3 PPC. This took about 4-5 days per month, and 30 days active duty per year. During the "Cold War" we were prepared for a “Come as you are party”. Maintaining hard to replace skilled personnel, which includes pilots, was the reason the reserves existed. To train a PPC from scratch would take about 2-3 years. Trained veterans man the reserves. They are a bargain for the country, and we should be extremely thankful we have that level of dedication amongst our reservists. This is one of those small pieces of the big puzzle that allows this country to dictate its own course in world affairs, and allow companies such as SWA to thrive in this country. BTW the reserve retirement after a shaky career in aviation is not a bad side beeny of being in the reserves.
Benjamin Dover
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Do you think there is some sort of tenure and you can stay on active duty as long as you want? Or that everybody that wants to be a general will be one? Did you miss the part of out of a cockpit for many years? Not even worth the keystokes trying to explain what reality is.
I thought you and your boy SWA/FO might have gotten a clue from my example that maybe you don't have to be an active duty soldier to serve and protect our country and our way of life with patriotism and dedication. That maybe being a part-time soldier or airman might be something more than just part-time money and a way to work the program. Over 40% of those currently serving in the desert today are guard/reserve. I guess by your standards only 60% of those serving over there are true patriots because they chose to get out before the 30-40 year mark. Maybe you and SWA/FO need to ask a family member of a guard/reservist on a 6-12 month deployment over there how that part-time "plan" is working out.
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afhercdriver
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Actually I did think you can stay on as long as you like. I thought that the only people that have to get out were the nco's that have been in for 30 years. When people make statements that they want to serve our country and protect our way of life I am greatefull to people like that, because of them i can enjoy my freedom. All i am saying is that if you so patriotic it shouldn't matter if you can fly or not. You should stay in for as long as you like. I talk to many guys that say I am in for my 20 get me pension and then run oh and join the gaurd to get more money. That does not sound like patriotism to me!
pilotyip
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Bravodude, In the military you serve at the pleasure of the President. Money magazine rated the military as one of the worst careers in terms of job stability. There is absolutely no guaranteed that anyone can finish 20 years and retire. Talk to the Vietnam Vets who went through the contraction of the military after Vietnam or the Cold War vets who experienced the peace dividend drawdown of the early 90’s. That is not to mention not staying a cockpit after your first 10-12 years as you mature into senior officer positions.
jball2
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I Know SWA/FO and I can tell you that if you knew him you would understand his humor. That boy is funny! Anyway, I know defending him is not what you are looking for, but I had to.
As far as Mil/Civ argument goes, after six months on the job either can do the job just a well as the other. A FEW of both can't let go of the past. We are are all SWA pilots at this company now! Blue pants, white shirt, white stripes, GET IT?
As far as Mil/Civ argument goes, after six months on the job either can do the job just a well as the other. A FEW of both can't let go of the past. We are are all SWA pilots at this company now! Blue pants, white shirt, white stripes, GET IT?
Quick education for my non-military brethren about officers in the AF. You are not guaranteed a pilot slot when you join. If you do get one, there is no guarantee you will make it through pilot training (my class had about a 30% washout rate). You are in an up or out promotion system. Pretty much guaranteed to make the first 2 promotions up to captain unless the military decides to downsize and force you out. After that, it is more about the non flying portion of your job for getting promoted. Most guys will make major and if you go to a staff job and do the right things, you make Lt Col. If you don't make Lt Col, you have to leave after 20 years. If you do make it, you have to leave after 27 years. Very few make it above Lt Col and if you do, you are almost guaranteed to be not flying.
So, for the vast majority there are 2 routes. You either go the route to get promoted to Lt Col and retire at 20 years (doesn't make much sense for most to go beyond 20 years as your retirement pay won't increase much, you are more likely to go to a non-flying position, and the longer you wait to retire the shorter your time will be for your next job which you have to do as you are forced out of the AF well before you can fully retire), or you can serve your required time after pilot training (roughly 10 years of service) and then go the civilian route. Most of that go this route also go to the Reserves/Guard as they already have built times towards retirement that they would get none of if they didn't do this, as well as to maintain currency while waiting for their airline job. Additionally, most of them love the military flying/patriotism, but either couldn't get promoted or didn't want to do the additional things such as a non-flying job, getting a masters degree, etc. that would get them promoted.
Hopefully this helps give you an understanding.
So, for the vast majority there are 2 routes. You either go the route to get promoted to Lt Col and retire at 20 years (doesn't make much sense for most to go beyond 20 years as your retirement pay won't increase much, you are more likely to go to a non-flying position, and the longer you wait to retire the shorter your time will be for your next job which you have to do as you are forced out of the AF well before you can fully retire), or you can serve your required time after pilot training (roughly 10 years of service) and then go the civilian route. Most of that go this route also go to the Reserves/Guard as they already have built times towards retirement that they would get none of if they didn't do this, as well as to maintain currency while waiting for their airline job. Additionally, most of them love the military flying/patriotism, but either couldn't get promoted or didn't want to do the additional things such as a non-flying job, getting a masters degree, etc. that would get them promoted.
Hopefully this helps give you an understanding.
That makes alot more sense to me now. thank you!
SWA/FO
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Of course we could cover the Civi route too.... except there are thousands of different stories, most will no pay/benefits (unlike a government job can provide.)
Guess what? this route comes with no guarantee either, but who really cares?
The only difference is if your in the Mil you're in the Mil... if they don't want you to fly, you don't fly. When your a Civi, you decide when you don't want to fly (chase the dream) anymore.
Guess what? this route comes with no guarantee either, but who really cares?
The only difference is if your in the Mil you're in the Mil... if they don't want you to fly, you don't fly. When your a Civi, you decide when you don't want to fly (chase the dream) anymore.
"You civilain guys" or similar make me cringe.
I get it, replying (better described as taking the bait) to a small number of yahoos rattling your cage. Please remember as you pontificate that many of us civilian pilots are prior military. We fixed the planes you flew, ensured you were paid while others were the tip of the spear hanging it out as much as any of you. The "you will never know the pride" rant rings hallow to the surprisingly large number of us who served. Please remember that before you breech load the next round directed at civilians.
Former Marine, infantry.
I get it, replying (better described as taking the bait) to a small number of yahoos rattling your cage. Please remember as you pontificate that many of us civilian pilots are prior military. We fixed the planes you flew, ensured you were paid while others were the tip of the spear hanging it out as much as any of you. The "you will never know the pride" rant rings hallow to the surprisingly large number of us who served. Please remember that before you breech load the next round directed at civilians.
Former Marine, infantry.
SWA/FO is "that guy" that gives civilian guys a bad name. I do take that sh*t seriously, because he is the reason why we have that rift going between the civ/mil thing.uke:
He's the f**king clown that will never know the pride of serving your country/wearing the uniform and probably babbles about his hatred toward our military throughout an entire 4 day. I'll throw 5 bucks down on a bet he probably got burned/turned down by the military sometime in his sorry past.
Wow, we have kids like this flying around with bombs attached to their aricraft? Scary. Sounds like hes the one trying to impress the girls at Starbucks, wearing the cool uniform and all.
Benjamin Dover
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O.K. Russ. Not much going on tonight so I'll take the bait - doesn't "you military guys" bother you too? I guess not. It's like the 20+ year military retired guys in flight ops who claim they know what's it like as a guard/reservist. They don't have a clue, just like you don't have a clue what it's like to serve in this fashion . Just like I didn't have a clue, nor did I care, while I was on active duty. But now, reality is much different than perception.
Anyway, you have actually served rather than presume to know what's its like, like many of the rest. So, what are your thoughts on guard and reserve soldiers/marines/airmen etc - especially today compared to 6 years ago? Just cashing a check, working the retirement plan and exploiting USERRA as SWA/FO asserts, or have things changed lately? Or, just like when we were on active duty, do you not even care, despite the exponentially higher use of part-timers these days. The number of casualties as a percentage of those deployed is higher for guard/reserve than active duty during the past year or so, but I guess that doesn't matter. Is it possible that our active duty military is over extended and the pentagon is relying much more on guard and reserve than they ever did - this includes both combat overseas and training and staff billets in CONUS? Or, is it just the old days of one weekend a month with coffee and donuts at the armory checking off a year toward retirement or dropping airlline trips with mil leave just to make the kids ballgames?
"the pride rant rings hallow". The ones making the rant have served and continue to serve dude, and my guess is you're way in the minority with that claim.
I would bet that there are some of your former Marine bud's that left active duty but stayed in the reserves and have been activated to the desert. What would you say about them, less than patriotic because they didn't stay in for a career? Ask an active duty Marine or soldier or pilot, or whatever you want to pick, serving along side a reservist who is either on the front lines as a grunt or back in the training command doing over 30% or the sorties or somewhere in-between what they think. Part-time scammer or big time contributor? You might be surprised.
So, that is my issue and is what gets under the skin of all us "yahoos". This is not the part-time soldier days of years past. Those - and I guess I'll include you in this - that discount patriotism as a motivator for today's guardsman and reservist are out of date - given the time commitment and potential to deploy - and, ah possibly die - have eliminated the majority of the check cashers and "working the planners". So, yes, we did all volunteer. But guess what, we're still here.
I'm done here. Standing by for whatever you have. Thanks for your sevice as well.
Ben
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Ben
"you military guys" bother you too? I guess not"
You shouldn't make assumptions, especially based off a single post. Yes it does bother me to see your mil service denigrated as indirectly it's a swipe at mine as well. The scope of your response however far exceeds the simple request I had of mil pilots to remember before you fire that many of us civilian pilots are folks who served as well.
I cannot comment on the trials and tribulations of the ANG vs reserves vs AD. Other than to acknowledge the basic existence of all three, I have no expertise in the area. Nothing personal but I have little desire to find out either. I was thankful for CAS support as a grunt. I didn't care if the guy driving was active duty or not. I could ask you if you're familiar with some of the differing programs available within the Marine reserves to illustrate my point, but Google makes for easy and quick research. I would be impressed if you honestly could however. I've been out a lot longer than six years, so I can't give you the reflection you ask. I would say that the reserves seem to be a lot more integral to the mission's success than in the past.
"my guess is you're way in the minority with that claim"
Agreed, but its a sizable minority. My guess, and my guess alone is about 20% of regional pilots have a mil background.
You seem to sense a lack of respect from me, or perhaps others because you're guard or reserve.(that being my assumption) Well, you're off the mark. I respect anyone who raises the right hand and swears an oath of allegiance to their nation. I also recognize the added burden it imposes on families and civilian careers put on hold. Thank you.
"you military guys" bother you too? I guess not"
You shouldn't make assumptions, especially based off a single post. Yes it does bother me to see your mil service denigrated as indirectly it's a swipe at mine as well. The scope of your response however far exceeds the simple request I had of mil pilots to remember before you fire that many of us civilian pilots are folks who served as well.
I cannot comment on the trials and tribulations of the ANG vs reserves vs AD. Other than to acknowledge the basic existence of all three, I have no expertise in the area. Nothing personal but I have little desire to find out either. I was thankful for CAS support as a grunt. I didn't care if the guy driving was active duty or not. I could ask you if you're familiar with some of the differing programs available within the Marine reserves to illustrate my point, but Google makes for easy and quick research. I would be impressed if you honestly could however. I've been out a lot longer than six years, so I can't give you the reflection you ask. I would say that the reserves seem to be a lot more integral to the mission's success than in the past.
"my guess is you're way in the minority with that claim"
Agreed, but its a sizable minority. My guess, and my guess alone is about 20% of regional pilots have a mil background.
You seem to sense a lack of respect from me, or perhaps others because you're guard or reserve.(that being my assumption) Well, you're off the mark. I respect anyone who raises the right hand and swears an oath of allegiance to their nation. I also recognize the added burden it imposes on families and civilian careers put on hold. Thank you.
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canyonblue
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canyonblue
Everyone loves Southwest
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Dude. Major airline flying sucks too! Why don't they just give me 4 million now and I'll go away.
Gup
Well alright Gup, I'm with ya! But first add the other $1,000,000 P.E. says were gonna get from 60-65.
uke:
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