Surrender Certificate

[Jedi_Cheese]

In my aviation law class, I feel that my prof made two mistakes (I think, if not it's my mistunderstanding). The major problem is that I am an undergrad and he is a local judge, so if it comes down to credibility on who to believe, I'm going to lose. So, I need some help finding a goverment publication (of some sort, can include court cases - actually perfered) that spells out the regulations on these two issues.

The first is that he said that you shouldn't physically give your pilot's certificate to the FAA inspector during a ramp check because it may be thought of as surrendering your certificate. I believe this claim to be false A quick search on these boards showed that I am in the right but I need proof of it somehow.

The second is that an ASRS form can't be used in an enforcement action against you and you get off the hook. I believe that an ASRS form's title can be used against you and that using the form only waives any action the FAA can take against you, you will still have it on your record.

 

[SDCFI]

61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily surrender it for:

(1) Cancellation;

(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or

(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.

(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: “This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance.”

§ 91.25 Aviation Safety Reporting Program: Prohibition against use of reports for enforcement purposes.
The Administrator of the FAA will not use reports submitted to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration under the Aviation Safety Reporting Program (or information derived therefrom) in any enforcement action except information concerning accidents or criminal offenses which are wholly excluded from the Program

A NASA form will only prevent punitive actions (suspension, revocation, etc.) The violation will still be on your permanent record.

 

[JAFI]

I don't recommend that you argue with your "Judge" but you can show FAA guidance to "help" them make up their mind. Look at his link:


http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_001_10.pdf

Look at Paragraph number 15. VOLUNTARY SURRENDER OF CERTIFICATE OR RATING.

Inspectors, as a policy, do NOT walk away with an Airman's certificate. You cannot surrender a certificate with out a letter signed by you, given to a FSDO with the certificate or part of a certificate you wish to surrender. This does happen, but it is rare. This "Don't let the Inspector take your certificate" urban legend started 20 plus years ago and has not died yet. I have not been able to track down the source of the story. I am supprised your judge can even think this.

JAFI

 

[A Squared]

Regarding the NASA form:

As sdcfi stated, the NASA form doesn't protect you from an enforcement, or a violation. It protects you from the penalty.

The report cannot be used against you. When NASA receives it, they cut off the identification strip and mail it back to you. They remove any identifying data from the report before releasing it. It is possible that there might be information remaining that the FAA might use in an investigation, but that information cannot be entered as evidence.

Here's what *did* happen on at least one occasion. THe FAA used a statement on the identification strip against a pilot. THe pilot wrote something on the ID strip like: "airspace violation". During the enforcement, the pilot brought out the ID strip and presented it to the FAA. The FAA said, "oh, so you admit there was an aispace violation? " and used that statement against him in a sucessful enforcement.

2 lessons:

1, don't put a statement like "airspace violation" on the ID strip, use something ambiguous like "ATC query about position"


2, if you are in an enforcement, don't bring out the ID strip and give it to the FAA. It won't stop the enforcement proceedings, and if they have sufficient evidence for a violation, you're going to get the violation, regardless of the NASA report. Save it until after you get the violation, then present it to have the penalty waived.

 

[JediNein]

Regarding the NASA form:

1, don't put a statement like "airspace violation" on the ID strip, use something ambiguous like "ATC query about position"

How about a step removed like, "airspace", or "ATC", "altitude failure" and so on?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[A Squared]

How about a step removed like, "airspace", or "ATC", "altitude failure" and so on? Jedi Nein

that would be even better

 

[midlifeflyer]

The major problem is that I am an undergrad and he is a local judge,

Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ under 100?





A: "Your Honor"

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Thanks!

Midlife, that's so true it's not funny

 

[midlifeflyer]

Lawyer joke written by lawyers for lawyers.

 

[PHX767]

Man, that urban legend just won't die.

If you want a REALLY thorough ramp check, just tell the inspector that you have to hold on to your license and can't let go of it while he writes down the info. You will be amazed at how nit picky they will become. On the other hand, if you hand the guy your license and medical, and say "Here's the logbook whenever you want to look it over" and go about your business it seems to go much smoother.