Surrender Certificate

[Cutlass1287]

So what happens if a pilot screws something up, but no one says anything, until he sends in the NASA report, and gets violated. Is it possible that no one even knew until he sent in the report?

 

[A Squared]

So what happens if a pilot screws something up, but no one says anything, until he sends in the NASA report, and gets violated. Is it possible that no one even knew until he sent in the report?

THe FAA is not supposed to do this, see 91.25. However, what is to prevent a fed from getting information through the ASRS which tells him where to look to start digging for information on a violation? Nothing, except of course the regulation. Unless you believe that the faa would never violate thier own regulations, you realize that there is at least some possiblity of ASRS info being used through the backdoor.

91.25 The Administrator of the FAA will not use reports submitted to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration under the Aviation Safety Reporting Program (or information derived therefrom) in any enforcement action, except information concerning accidents or criminal offenses which are wholly excluded from the program.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I've always understood that you are in no way shape or form EVER required to hand your certificate to a fed unless he presents you with a written emergency order of revocation.

 

[mnixon]

In my aviation law class, I feel that my prof made two mistakes (I think, if not it's my mistunderstanding). The major problem is that I am an undergrad and he is a local judge, so if it comes down to credibility on who to believe, I'm going to lose. So, I need some help finding a goverment publication (of some sort, can include court cases - actually perfered) that spells out the regulations on these two issues.

The first is that he said that you shouldn't physically give your pilot's certificate to the FAA inspector during a ramp check because it may be thought of as surrendering your certificate. I believe this claim to be false A quick search on these boards showed that I am in the right but I need proof of it somehow.

The second is that an ASRS form can't be used in an enforcement action against you and you get off the hook. I believe that an ASRS form's title can be used against you and that using the form only waives any action the FAA can take against you, you will still have it on your record.

You don't want to work for the FAA do you? That could change my answer.

 

[JAFI]

I've always understood that you are in no way shape or form EVER required to hand your certificate to a fed unless he presents you with a written emergency order of revocation.

Read:

61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.


--- Or, You could do it your way and maybe you'll get to see that letter of Revocation.....
JAFI

 

[CapnVegetto]

There you go....it says you have to PRESENT it. I've seen Vanna White present plenty of stuff on Wheel of Fortune without ever handing it to anyone. Here you go sir, look at it all you want, as long as it stays in my hand.

 

[JAFI]

There you go....it says you have to PRESENT it. I've seen Vanna White present plenty of stuff on Wheel of Fortune without ever handing it to anyone. Here you go sir, look at it all you want, as long as it stays in my hand.

Well, there you go.... The Vanna White defense. Please let us know if and when you are going to use this in court. I would pay to see that.
JAFI

 

[CapnVegetto]

OK, JAFI, this is from Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: pre·sent
Pronunciation: pri-'zent
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French presenter, from Latin praesentare, from praesent-, praesens, adjective
transitive senses
1 a (1) : to bring or introduce into the presence of someone especially of superior rank or status (2) : to introduce socially b : to bring (as a play) before the public
2 : to make a gift to
3 a : to lay (as a charge) before a court as an object of inquiry b : to bring a formal public charge, indictment, or presentment against
4 : to nominate to a benefice
5 a : to offer to view : SHOW b : to bring to one's attention <this presents a problem>
6 : to act the part of : PERFORM
7 : to aim, point, or direct (as a weapon) so as to face something or in a particular direction
intransitive senses
1 : to present a weapon
2 : to become manifest
3 : to come forward as a patient
4 : to make a presentation
- pre·sent·er noun

Where in there does it say that to present it, I have to PHYSICALLY HAND it to him? Nowhere. I especially like definition #5. To offer to view. "Here you go sir....I'll hold it, and you can view it all you want. Here, let me show you the back....and the sides....."

 

[JAFI]

Well then, your mind is make up.

Good Luck

JAFI

 

[Xav8tor]

The little card you carry in your wallet is merely proof that you have the right to do what an ATP does. The loss of the card itself, whether inadvertent or stolen (or somewhere between) does not mean you are no longer an ATP. There is even a procedure you can follow so that you won't miss that next trip when you realize you can't find your license. In order for you to lose the rights to exercise the privileges of your ATP will take far more than merely allowing an AUHTORIZED official to hold your cert. The attorney who wrote the AvWeb article(s) and JAFI on this board give excellent advice. Heed it. Lawfly's 2 cent opinion was worth a bit more than the price he quoted too!

 

[JAFI]

Well then, your mind is make up.

Good Luck

JAFI

Bad spellcheck on my part. What I ment to say was: Well then, your mind is MADE up. Good luck.

JAFI

 

[npowless]

May I suggest that he/she and you read Practical Aviation Law by J. Scott Hamiliton. This is a well-known book that is used widely as a text in aviation law classes.

It's been a while since I took Aviation Law, but is that not the book that states that if an FAA inspector takes your certificate it is a surrender of your certificate, and you should scream "bloody murder" on the ramp so he can't get away with taking it from you?

Like I said, it has been a while, so I am not sure if this was the book we used or not... but whatever book we did use, it did say that.

Nathan

 

[CapnVegetto]

It's been a while since I took Aviation Law, but is that not the book that states that if an FAA inspector takes your certificate it is a surrender of your certificate, and you should scream "bloody murder" on the ramp so he can't get away with taking it from you?

Like I said, it has been a while, so I am not sure if this was the book we used or not... but whatever book we did use, it did say that.

Nathan

I know that's what ol' Bob Ripley used to say!!

 

[npowless]

I know that's what ol' Bob Ripley used to say!!

Yep... that would be it... War Eagle!

 

[jetdriven]

guys you are making a big deal about this. I have been ramp checked maybe 10 times flying as a CFI, ferry pilot, 135 freight dog, and as a 121 FO and captain. I just hand the license and medical to him and let him look at it. Call it an established level of trust, if you will. They usually write down the number and give it back to you, then do a quick walkaround and go about their business. If I am approached by a known or suspected "prick" fed, I'll take THEIR certificate and write their info down. That sure puts them on notice they are on a short leash. My lawyer can call the FSDO and raise hell not just about an "FAA guy" but about John Martin, 1456754.

two kinds of Feds I have ran across, maintenance and airmen. Maintenance feds like to look over the airplane for smoking rivets, missing or inoperable items, and inspect the maintenance records. The airmen feds are interested in the qualifications of the airman, and their manner of aircraft operation, etc.

Most of the maintenance feds wouldnt know if you took off downwind or overweight and really dont ask. The airmen type of feds wont know of the gear door bolt should have the nut facing forward or aft or the washer stacking on the nose gear of your 1900.
I have found mostly these guys are retired airline mechanics or retired (eastern, Pan AM) airline pilots who have to do a certain quota of ramp checks every month and are just out there doing their jobs.

 

[JAFI]

Jetdriven, A few minor points...

Pilots, A&P's, Dispatchers, Parachute Riggers, Navigators, etc; are ALL Airman with Airman Certificates. Pilots are not the only "Airman".

I will not hand you my certificate. (I have on occasion as an example of a new certificate or as an example for format.) But, You have no authority to ask for it. See the CFR's. I will be happy to show you my Inspector Credentials (form 110A). Each has a number on it that identifies the Inspector. (Cabin Safety and Avionics Inspectors do not usually have Airman Certificates - none is required, some are also pilots and A&P's but that is not part of their job - but they all have 110A's). If an inspector refuses to show their credentials, call the police. They may not really be who they say they are.


I agree with many of your points. Most Inspectors are just doing their job, and ramp inspections is part of it. It is VERY seldom an airman refuses to hand me a certificate. I do not mind. As an old Inspector told an Airman who refused to produce his certificate, "We can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way, I can do both.... What is your choice?"

Some airman like to be difficult. Some times it makes my day.


JAFI

 

[transpac]

I had pilots ask to see my pilot certificate numerous times when I was a FAA Ops Inspector doing enroute inspections. If I happened to be carrying it I had no problem letting them see (and hold) it. Most of the time the crew just wanted to see which type ratings were on the certificate.

 

[JAFI]

transpac, I agree with you. I have shown my certificate to a pilot who asked. I do not normally carry it and normally do not show it just because a pilot wants to see it. The 110A is all that is required for identification. I have been asked for other identification for security purposes, no problem there. I have used my certificate as a format example to answer a question. My point was that asking to see an Inspectors certificate may not get the pilot very far. We are not required to carry one or show it to any pilot who asks and some inspectors (Cabin Safety and Avonics) do not have a certificate. What we all have is a 110A with an identifiable number.

JAFI

 

[transpac]

No argument here Jafi. The 110A is supposed to be golden.

In regards to the "surrendering certificate" issue, I have a slightly related story to tell: I was a supervisor and had one of my guys doing an enroute a few years ago. After copying the info from the co-pilot's certificates, the ASI somehow misplaced the co-pilot's airman certificate and it stayed lost. The ASI didn't have any temporaries with him so they agreed that the PTRS information could serve as a certificate in this case. I was called somewhere along the line and briefed on the problem. The flight continued as planned, ending up in our home city late at night. I met the crew on the jetway with apologies, a fresh temporary certificate, and assurances that a permanent was on its way.

I can't imagine the agency's reaction if an Inspector decided to keep someone's certificate after inspecting it. I know the airman would get his certificate back immediately after complaining to FAA management, but I suspect it would be months or never for the Inspector to get his or her job back.

 

[TonyC]

Here's what I heard:


OK, with that caveat, I can't go wrong, right?


An examiner that conducted a line check on me reminded me that there have been a few incidents where Examiner's credentials and FAA forms were stolen. He advised the following before allowing an Inspector to ride along.

First, as has been mentioned already, you should see his 110A. At our airline, the same number that appears on his 110A should be on our Flight Plan/Release beside his name.

Second, you should ask to see some form of picture identification. Government-issued documents such as Driver License or Passport are preferred. The name should match his 110A; the picture should match HIM.

Finally, you should receive an FAA Form 8430-13, Request For Access To Aircraft with the appropriate information.

If something looks suspicious, call the nearest FSDO. Bad things have happened when people gained access to the cockpit who shouldn't have. You can't be too careful these days.



Allowing him to take physical possession of the certificate in order to record your information is NOT surrendering your certificate. Be paranoid about him riding, not about him handling the certificate to look at your information.




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