Super Pilots....I'm workin' with Idiots!

[stillaboo]

He told me if you get the right training, a 300 hr pilot can be just as good as 1500 hr.

Any comments on that fellas?

Just make sure your put emphasis on the words can be. Most people need more than 300 hours. There're some who don't. They are few and far between. If they are given the right training and the right opportunity presents itself, they can do just as well as any other new hire.

It's really a shame that there are a small percentage of guys in 300 hour-type programs who, before they're even hired at an airline, go braggin' about it to other pilots, CFI's, and 121 line pilots. Once a 300 hour pilot gets on-line, he/she doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that he/she only has 300 hours, and they don't b/c they fly smooth, just like they should. Not surprisingly, the % who decided to brag before they were even hired usually don't end up flying the line at 300 hours.

Judge a pilot by the skills they bring to the flight deck. If they have it at 300 hours, then they have it. If they don't, report them as unsafe.

-Boo!

 

[metrodriver]

I know a guy who is flying for pinnacle and who has quite an accomplished record, but none of his recommendations has been called for an interview. It seems that almost all the new hires here come from GIA or NWA and partner airlines who are furloughing.

 

[stillaboo]

Do the GIA hires at Pinnacle have to PFT to GIA?

I can see it now:

"Shiny new jet FO's for sale, only $25K each!"

-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

300-hour wonder pilots

Ab initio programs work, but it helps to have good material. I instructed at MAPD ten years ago and, before that, at FSI training Alitalia pilots. The Alitalia guys were hand-picked individuals and mostly flew really well and kept up with the course. They had to keep up because they received no extra training periods. We had one who was washed out.

I am 100% positive that MAPD students are accepted primarily on their ability to pay and not because of their potential. I had at least three students whom, I'm sure, went on the Mesa and became captains. Two were extremely sharp; the third was alright. I had a couple of others who had bad attitudes. I also recall one who was not my student who was pushed along and was barely safe. I don't think she made it.

MAPD students are imbued with Mesa procedures from their first day of training, but once they get to class they're on their own. I know that Mesa is not shy at all about washing out people from class. Moreover, MAPD grads have to take the same 121 ride as more experienced street hires. Both of these points should be dispositive of the competency question. MAPDers are on probation the same as everyone else, and very well may be subject to the associated politics of probation as street hires.

You can produce a technically-proficient pilot in 300 hours in a quality program, but expererience is the best teacher. Everyone was new at one time, including Rod the Captain. Maybe he forgot that. Good captains teach. They show newcomers the ropes. Suggested reading would be the first few chapters of Fate Is The Hunter, and how Ernest Gann learned from his early captains.

 

[RJlifer]

Ever had a new FO suck the gear out from under ya? That is still my favorite section in Fate Is The Hunter.

I've got nothing against low timers. The afforementioned FO was actually a 2500hr new hire. Just a little quick on the trigger. No metal bent, just a fresh pair of shorts and a couple brews at the end of the day.

 

[sf3boy]

I have flown with a few captains over the years with 5000+ hrs that had no business being in the left seat of a car let alone an aircraft with paying passengers. Just got off a such a trip a couple of days ago. In my mind skill and judgement come from a mixture of training and experience. Obviously the more experience, the more skill and judgement.....in most cases. Those who pay to get on at a regional so they do not have to go through experience says a lot about their character as well as their (possible) airmanship abilities.

 

[Freight Dog]

I can understand some frustrations, and having been a captain, I can relate in some ways.

Yes, as a captain, I expected my FO's to be competent, and fully-functional crewmember. In other words, if crapola hit the fan, I expect a cool, calm professional in the right seat to handle the emergency. I also expected my FO's to feel confident flying IFR and in various challenging situations.

I will gladly demonstrate effective techniques pertinent to the type of aircraft, aircraft handling and letting the new FO learn what the airplane can do and what it cannot do. HOWEVER, it is not my job to teach FO's the basics of flight (crosswind correction), use of rudder, or teach the FO basic IFR skills, as they should have had that before getting hired.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

What is MAPD charge for the trainging in order to get a job with them? What happens if you have all your tickets by then?

Also, what are the schools that get you a job at on of the Delta Connections? Anything for CoEx?

Thanks guys!

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD and Mesa PACE

What is MAPD charge for the trainging in order to get a job with them? What happens if you have all your tickets by then?

The Mesa Pilot Development website has the answers to your questions.

MAPD is a Part 141 program. People with their Privates tried to challenge out of the Mesa private program and usually failed. It might have had to do in part with Mesa trying to milk as much money as possible out of them, but I think it had to do more with not being given the chance to learn Mesa's unique line procedures. Zero-time students learn Mesa line procedures from their first day, which is one reason why MAPD is a good program.

I do not believe that you can test out of any ratings beyond Private.

Contrary to popular belief, MAPD is not P-F-T. Although the training you receive has a decided Mesa bent to it, the Commercial-Instrument-Multi you earn at MAPD is good anywhere. Moreover, there is no guarantee that you will be interviewed, although a signficant percentage of MAPD students are interviewed by the airline.

On the other hand, if you want to see how far you can get with all your ratings, Mesa offers the PACE program. I would be wary of that program. Along with the usual P-F-T caveats there is no guarantee of your fate beyond "the interview."

Good luck with your choices.

 

[stillaboo]

Originally posted by bobbysamd
Just to clarify these points. I can update Bobby's info a bit, though, generally, he's on target.

People with their Privates tried to challenge out of the Mesa private program and usually failed.

I don't know of anyone in the past 4 years who has even attempted to challenge the PPL. I didn't even know it was an option, otherwise I would have tried . . . and likely failed! Bobby's right, the proceedures Mesa insists upon are not something you can pick up overnight. They will make you a better pilot though.

Moreover, there is no guarantee that you will be interviewed, although a signficant percentage of MAPD students are interviewed by the airline.

There is a guaranteed interview with Mesa Air Group (Air Midwest, Mesa, and Freedom - which are ALL on 1 seniorty list under ALPA now ) if you successfully complete the program. There is no guarantee you will successfully complete the program, nor is there one that you will get hired after you interview. I'd guess about 35% of students who start the MAPD program don't make it to the right seat.

On the other hand, if you want to see how far you can get with all your ratings, Mesa offers the PACE program. I would be wary of that program. Along with the usual P-F-T caveats there is no guarantee of your fate beyond "the interview."

The PACE program recently changed their policy so that you don't have to have any multi or your CMEL rating. Go to the website and call MAPD for details. Most PACE grads who have interviewed in the last 4 years have been hired, but not all (some people just don't have what it takes to fly professionally. No matter how much training they go through, some just can't fly to the standards Mesa insists upon.) Now that PACE has lowered its requirements (they're deperate for students, honestly), I think it's the best thing out there. No PFT, 4 month program get your CMEL, get an interview with Mesa, etc. Just don't think it's easy. You are held to the same standards as the students who've been there since their private, and the learning curve is steep, but manageable.

If you want to go Delta Connection, go to Commair Academy. There's info on it on the board if you search for it. I'm sure that there's programs out there that feed into just about every regional by now. Just be careful, b/c many students seem to feel they were the victims of broken promises.

Once you get on-line, don't start bragging about what kind of aviation god you are. That's how low-timers get branded as 'super pilots' in threads like this, a case of a couple egotistical jerks ruining it for a whole group of pilots willing to eat humble-pie for the oportunity to fly 121 with low hours. Let your flying speak for you. If you've got the skills, then you have a right to be in the seat.

-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD screwups/screwoffs

Originally posted by stillaboo
There is a guaranteed interview with Mesa Air Group (Air Midwest, Mesa, and Freedom . . . .

Assuming, of course, that you keep your yap shut, hit all the gates in the program, keep the gatekeepers happy, maintain a B average in your flight courses, and keep your yap shut. Then, you'll get "the interview."

Essentially, "the interview" is yours to lose. That happened to one of my Mesa "students" ten years ago. Actually, the guy flew reasonably well and was a decent student. But overbearing and a major problem type. He was well known in infamy. I received this individual. He started off fine but became increasingly demanding. Then, he did not schedule for several weeks (which was fine by me). Then, he starts to play catch-up, arrives unprepared, flies with another instructor, and busts his stage check. During this time, he starts arguing with me during his long instrument cross-country regarding the pitch v. power debate, saying that the Assistant Chief declared what controlled what and that he would disregard my 3300 hours of dual given input on the matter (I am being vague deliberately because I don't want to incite another pitch v. power debate. ). I had enough of his lack of respect and went to the Chief Instructor. The Chief Instructor, who was quite familiar with this student, finally decided that this fellow could finish the program but he would not be sent to Corporate for an interview. By exhibiting attitude, this person lost a real opportunity that some people with tons more of experience never get.

Word to the MAPD wise should be sufficient.

Did I say to keep your yap shut?

Good luck with MAPD. And thanks to Stillaboo for updating my comments.

 

[bandit110]

The only thing scarrier to watch than putting a 300 hour guy in an airliner is see a 3000 hour airline captain getting an initial tail wheel sign off.

 

[stillaboo]

Spaz attack!

overbearing and a major problem type. He was well known in infamy . . . he would disregard my 3300 hours of dual given input on the matter

300 or 30,000 hours, would you want to fly with this 'spaz'?! Exactly. There was a guy more recently who wasn't hired. He says it's b/c he's middle eastern. Others say it might be because he called an administrator "a b*tch", landed on a closed runway b/c he had 'a fuel emergency' (it was found that he had about 1.5 hours of fuel left when he landed, enough to fly to his destination and still keep his 1/2 hour reserve), and failed a check 4 times (3 failures means you're kicked out). Is it any surprise he was willing to go to Freedom?

Maybe these 300 hour to the right seat programs do the industry a favor by seperating the wheat from the chafe?

Come on, can I get a little love here . . . a hug . . . anything?!

Originally posted by bandit110 The only thing scarrier to watch than putting a 300 hour guy in an airliner is see a 3000 hour airline captain getting an initial tail wheel sign off.

I watched a 777 captain try to grease a 172 on the other day. He flared right where he was supposed to . . . in a triple 7! Good thing that 172 has forgiving gear, 'cause he must have stalled it out at least 40 ft. above the runway!

-Boo!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

DOH!!!

 

[GLSoar]

Experience the best teacher

da