Strobes on the ground

[Way2Broke]

If the only anti-collision lights on a airplane are the wing stobes are you required to have them on? What about at night when it might be a hazard to other planes, they are still required and you do not have a becon to satisfy the requirements of 91.205.

 

[nosehair]

91.209
No persom may -
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equiped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights may not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determins that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of fafety to turn the lights off.

If you are operating on the ground near other aircraft operating, it is condsidered in the interest of safety to not blind the other guys.

Ultimately, it is your call.

 

[Way2Broke]

Thanks.

 

[Say Again Over]

My MEL requires the use of strobes if the roatating beacon is MEL'ed, that would mean that prior to start they must be on, what's worse, strobes on or an invisible aircraft?

 

[ksu_aviator]

Invisible aircraft? Does Wonder Woman fly for your company? I want to see (or not see) this invisible aircraft

 

[Trogdor]

I'd take an invisible aircraft over strobes on the ground at night.

 

[charter dog]

There oughta be a $5,000.00 fine (or a public beating!) for purposely operating the strobes on the ramp or taxiway at night and $1,000,000.00 penalty for each manufacturer who actually delivers new aircraft without a red anti-collision beacon! Double that if the airplane checklist says to turn the strobes on before start. Pack that in your parachute, Cirrus!

Okay, maybe the above is slightly extreme, but so is the flash blindness of white strobes! I really hate the idea of creating any more regulations, but for this issue, I'll make an exception. This should have been addressed by regulation long ago.

Best,

 

[Hook 'Em Horns]

I've noticed lately a growing number of pilots in C-172 type aircraft taxiing day and night with beacon and strobes. Quite annoying. Maybe AOPA or Richard "I always get a 2 hour weather briefing to do touch-and-gos" Collins has determined they are needed for safety. Must be the case as it seems to be more prevelent.

 

[Learsforsale]

On a similar topic...
When you are being marshelled in, at night please do your ramper a favor and dim the landing/taxi lights a little. It often made it difficult to judge distance and check wing clearance. This does not apply if the ramper forgot his night (glowing) wands and is using day wands, then by all means burn out his retinas!

Many corporate pilots turned off the lights when they saw my wands or when they saw me squinting in anguish and my skin turning a nice golden brown.

 

[siucavflight]

There oughta be a $5,000.00 fine (or a public beating!) for purposely operating the strobes on the ramp or taxiway at night and $1,000,000.00 penalty for each manufacturer who actually delivers new aircraft without a red anti-collision beacon! Double that if the airplane checklist says to turn the strobes on before start. Pack that in your parachute, Cirrus!

If you are operating a cirrus or a columbia that is now equipped with a beacon light you might get a fine from the FAA for not having the strobes on, as they are required any time that the engine is running.

 

[Way2Broke]

If you are operating a cirrus or a columbia that is now equipped with a beacon light you might get a fine from the FAA for not having the strobes on, as they are required any time that the engine is running.

That would be the dumbest thing I have ever seen...if it happens.

 

[erj-145mech]

If you are operating a cirrus or a columbia that is now equipped with a beacon light you might get a fine from the FAA for not having the strobes on, as they are required any time that the engine is running.

Can you quote that reg, I can't seem to find that one?

 

[siucavflight]

Can you quote that reg, I can't seem to find that one?

Actually I can, but need to get my regs book, but you are required, will post it tomorrow.

 

[ackattacker]

Nosehair already quoted the appropriate reg above (91.209). If you don't have a beacon then the strobes are the approved anticollision light system and are required to be on when the engine is running, *unless* the pilot in command determines that it would be in the interest of safety to turn them off. If an inspector tries to give you a fine for operating with the strobes off, just tell him you saw him standing there and didn't want to jeapordize safety by blinding the FAA

 

[Way2Broke]

Nosehair already quoted the appropriate reg above (91.209). If you don't have a beacon then the strobes are the approved anticollision light system and are required to be on when the engine is running, *unless* the pilot in command determines that it would be in the interest of safety to turn them off. If an inspector tries to give you a fine for operating with the strobes off, just tell him you saw him standing there and didn't want to jeapordize safety by blinding the FAA

Do you think that would work, or would it be like saying you did not have your shoulder harness on because you could not perform your duties? (If you have worked at night lately you must have noticed that my strobes are now off until taking the runway in the plane that has this issue; and for the life of me I still can not figure out who you are)

I agree with the above post that all planes should have a beacon. I would use to say that it amazes me that someone will buy a airplane worth more than most houses and not spend a couple of hundred bucks to put a beacon on it, BUT after this summer nothing surprises me.

 

[avbug]

If you are operating a cirrus or a columbia that is now equipped with a beacon light you might get a fine from the FAA for not having the strobes on, as they are required any time that the engine is running.

Is this an aircraft limitation?

I agree with the above post that all planes should have a beacon.

I disagree. It's equipped great. If it's not, are you really gaining anything by installing one? Doubtful.

Beacons were installed on turbojet airplanes to warn of engine operation on the ground. That's the design and purpose. Certainly it can be used on turbopropeller and piston airplanes, helicopters, etc. Some like to leave the beacon on all the time to warn of a master switch that's been accidentally left on. Whatever floats one's boat. But to suggest that the beacon should be in all aircraft or that all aircraft should be required to have a beacon, is a bit of a stretch.

 

[erj-145mech]

Actually I can, but need to get my regs book, but you are required, will post it tomorrow.

This is from the reg:

(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off..

And there is a placard, placed next to the strobe switch, which is required per the Whelen strobe STC, in the airplane which reads:

"Turn off strobes when on the ground in the vicinity of other aircraft, and during flight in clouds."

This is an operating limitation and over rides the reg, per the type certificate, so your must be on, goes out the window.

On many regional jets, the red beacon also activates the cockpit voice recorder. This will enable the CVR to operate on the ground. Otherwise, it is only activated by the weight off wheels circuit.

Federal Aviation Regulations are not always cut and dried. They are more objective than subjective. They are written purposfully in a gray area in order to be interpeted easily in different manners.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Sometimes common sense dictates safety...

 

[siucavflight]

Sometimes common sense dictates safety...

Unfortunatly sometimes the FAA does not agree.

 

[avbug]

Unfortunatly sometimes the FAA does not agree.

As relates to this discussion, how does your statement apply? Do you still assert that the strobes are required, regardless of safety, in order to be legal in the Cirrus? This has been shown not to be the case.

Explain.

 

[microbrewst]

Actually I can, but need to get my regs book, but you are required, will post it tomorrow.

yeah i've heard of that reg too. i think it's FAR 91.BU115H1T

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

I'm quite familiar with the FAA. Believe it or not they would agree. If you have an MEL...it will dictate your type of operation...Day/ night and any restrictions. I think the days of "The FAA sits in the Tower" are over.

Just fly the plane.

 

[deadstick]

MEL's aside...I don't think the issue is whether the stobes must be functional. The question seems to be whether they must be on all the time.

91.205(b)11, 91.205(c)(3), and 91.209(b) are the regs I'm looking at. Any others?

I hate being blinded by others, and I imagine other pilots would prefer that I not blind them. So, for me, the beacon comes on before starting and the strobes follow after I'm cleared for T/O and I cross the hold short.

During the day, I do the same thing for uniformity. Oops? If you don't see the big plane rolling towards you at a brisk walk in daylight, then little twinkling lights aren't going to improve your vision. That is why pilots (should) keep the ol' brain buckets on a swivel and stay aware of the surroundings.

While we are on this topic, the light from some of these strobes and landing lights can really hit your vision and depth perception at the wrong time...like on landing. This can be bad, obviously. When taxiing or waiting for departure, just stay aware of aircraft in the pattern.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Safety? Most flight schools owners I knew of would have their instructors train to keep them off while on the ground so as to increase the replacement intervals. No landing light operations either, except at night. Forget about "operation lights on" - 10,000 and 10 miles.

 

[Way2Broke]

Safety? Most flight schools owners I knew of would have their instructors train to keep them off while on the ground so as to increase the replacement intervals. No landing light operations either, except at night. Forget about "operation lights on" - 10,000 and 10 miles.

Typical flight school. This is becoming more typical with airplanes, money before safety. Remember you are the PIC.

TBO.....what is that?

 

[Lazy8]

The school I work for has two airplanes with no red beacon. A Katana and an Arrow. We NEVER use the strobes at night until we're clear of the runup area taxiing onto the runway. After landing the strobes come off clear of the runway. They blind other pilots and can blind the guy sitting inside the plane too. Obviously the position lights are on and the taxi light comes on as needed so the plane isn't invisible. It is legal and the FAR has been quoted enough here so i dont think i need to. End - o - story.

g

 

[Waldom]

If an aircraft is on the ground, unless it is on an active runway, each flash of the strobe lights screams "amateur!...amateur!...amateur!...amateur!... .

 

[Way2Broke]

If an aircraft is on the ground, unless it is on an active runway, each flash of the strobe lights screams "amateur!...amateur!...amateur!...amateur!... .

Ask one of the Cirrus owners that have been fined if they are a amateur? I guess that makes the Feds rookies too? The question was regarding regulations and unless you have specifics to add why post anything at all.

 

[microbrewst]

Ask one of the Cirrus owners that have been fined if they are a amateur? I guess that makes the Feds rookies too? The question was regarding regulations and unless you have specifics to add why post anything at all.

do you have any specifics? because i don't see how if the reg says to "turn off the strobes"when you think it's safe, you get fined for following that reg. i'd like a case file number if you can produce it.

 

[Way2Broke]

I'll see what I can dig up, but the way I understand it there have been some dispute between pilots and the FAA on when it is a safety issue.

Why can't the FAA just require a red rotating becon? Why can't Cirrus put one on their half million dollar single engine piston a/c? Ranks right up there with, " "why does a Pilatus need so many landing lights"?