Strobe light taxi

[dasmith]

I agree, on the runway every light on. The FAA just sent a runway incursion brochures to CFIs which basically said the same thing.

A second thought, most airline ops manuals also say everylight on below 18k. Collision avoidance, FAA Birdstrike study, etc.

 

[minitour]

Taking the active:
Every light on and transponder to alt (or as directed by ATC).

I've had a few instructors insist that I taxi with every light on...including the strobes...one even went as far as to tell me it was a new FAR to have every light on all the time (day and night, ground and air)...

Given the choice, I don't want them on until I take the runway...I don't think it's fair to blind the guy holding off to my left to taxi behind me when my strobes flash in his face....

JMHO though...and that's just little stuff too...so ya gotta take it for what its worth

 

[Bandit60]

Ahh yes, good ole part 91...


I know our MEL REQUIRES the strobes to be on at night if the Beacon is either inop or not installed on an aircraft, even on the ground. Part 135 though.[/QUOTE

What does a MEL have to do with part 135. I fly part 91 and I have an MEL. Are you mistaken to think there is a difference between 91 and 135 with MEL's.

 

[avbug]

OK, while we are at it, Don't turn on your App and Flare lights until you are cleared to take off. This is common pratice for %90 of airliners. There are always the few boys that get cleared into position and hold with all guns blasing. Then I have to cross up feild and look at this christmas tree of lights at the end of the runway. My life always passes before my eyes.
Got it Alaska boys?

Not just position and hold, but any time I'll be on the runway, including taxiing across it, I turn everything on. I consider the runway a little like the barrel of a firearm; it's always loaded, and I'm always going to make myself as visible as possible. I've had people cleared to land on top of me before, I've had people down range decide it's time to takeoff while I'm crossing. I want to be seen. If a few lights is an inconvenience to someone while I'm in that runway environment, tough. It's my life to me.

Life beats inconvenience any day.

 

[Vector4fun]

Do I understand correctly that an aircraft built before '71 only needs position lights at night, no beacon or strobes? We have a guy here who has an older C172, and flies some evenings with only the nav lights. He's freaking invisible from a half mile away, and I know where to look for him. Seems dangerous to me. Even the taxiway lights are about four times brighter than a 12v bulb on a wing tip.

 

[TDTURBO]

I don't see what the big deal is with strobes effecting vision. If your vision is that sensitive maybe you shouldn't be flying. Strobes never bothered me one bit. If you are that freaked out over them then don't stare at them. OTOH, in the clouds at night I shut them off.

 

[avbug]

Strobes bother me a lot, up close. I turn them off on the ground for the benifit of others, and for my own benifit. I hate the flashing. I turn them off at the first hint of entering haze in flight, too. They're annoying, disorienting, and give me a headache.

Eons ago when responding to an emergency call in an engine or the rescue truck, as soon as we got to a more rural area, I turned off the siren. The noise drove me nuts. Someone else in the truck would always reach over and turn it on. I'd snap it right off and threaten to break their fingers if they touched it again. Don't rile the nice firefighter.

Same with strobes. Where night vision is a factor, which is really any time we're flying at night (hint, hint), everything possible should be done to preserve it. That includes being a good boy and shutting off your strobes, especially near other aircraft. When entering the runway environment, flood the world with light; be seen, it's for safety. But the rest of the time, shut the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** things off until you're in the air or about to be there.

If an aircraft was certificated without an anticollision system, it need not be operative. That is, if it never had one, obviously it doesn't need to be "on." Personally, I'm the missionary of see-and-be-seen. I've obtained STC's and installed strobes on aircraft that didn't have them. It's an issue I feel very, very strongly about. I've had several close calls that back up my belief.

Yes, you can fly with position lights only. I like alternating lights, strobes, logo lights, and anything else out there that makes me more visible no matter what it is that I'm flying.

I've been in the smoke many times, even in the dark, when the only way of seeing and identifying another aircraft is by it's lights. Otherwise, even in daylight, the other airplane is invisible. See and be seen. It's not just a good idea; it's the law.

 

[91100 100 set]

Regarding runway incursions. Those happen at the mic switch, not at the light switch. The runway incursion happens before any extra lights will save your skin.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

As for the " I don't wanna get hit while sitting in position" reasoning, why don't you just look towards the approach path as you enter the active for position?!

Don't turn on your App and Flare lights until you are cleared to take off. This is common pratice for %90 of airliners. .

THAT is what I was always told and what used to be the "rule".
The other night I sat at the North side hold short line of 26L at ATL for an hour. We were the only corporate aircraft in the sequence behind what seemed like half the airplanes in the Delta fleet, holding on the South side of the runway. About two-thirds of the airplanes would turn every light in the airplane on as soon as they were called into position(NOT cleared for takeoff). Some of the guys would turn off their ldg/taxi/flare lights as soon as they realized that we were over there and a few had the common sense or good training to wait until they were cleared for takeoff or , at least, wait until they were lined up. After a solid hour of being roasted by a couple billion candlepower, I started to feel like Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters!!?

 

[FN FAL]

On a related matter, it would be nice if people would leave their transponders off until taking the runway. I hate having to put up with TCAS alerts on short final. Especially in RDU!

Hmmmmm....since the notam at MKE says transponders ON while taxiing, I guess you'll be one of the ones being called by ground to be reminded to turn their transponder on. Just like the highly paid professionals at NWA that need to be told to do so as well.

It's real simple, when you tune in the atis, listen to it.

 

[Groundpounder]

While we are on the subject of lights, nothing annoys me more to have some dope leave all his landing and taxi lights on when I am trying to marshall him into a parking spot. I'd say 9 out of 10 GA pilots do this to me. The pro's rarely ever do it.

It seems that perhaps CFI's should train people how to use their lights and when to use them.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

The pro's rarely ever do it.

Just on a side note......I was an F/O in a Lear going into Miami on a hot night a few years ago. We had gone up to 450 and even with the notoriously marvelous defog system(it figures that it was designed by the same guy that invented the 8-track tape recorder!), the windshields were pretty well fogged. If you're not familiar with the Miami customs ramp or the way it used to be arranged, some genius decided to put decorative grass strips between the service road and the ramp. My Captain decided to be a nice guy and turn off the lights as he turned onto the ramp. The next thing I knew, we were "four-wheelin'" across the grass! Until I upgraded, everytime I flew with that Captain, he NEVER turned off his taxi lights until he was parked.
Sometimes you have to take the pilot's comfort level and possible past bad experience with derelict chocks, chains and phantom grass strips into account.

It seems that perhaps CFI's should train people how to use their lights and when to use them.

The problem with this is that many CFI's are barely past the training stage themselves(myself, at one time , included) and many of them don't know any better either.

 

[avbug]

Regarding runway incursions. Those happen at the mic switch, not at the light switch. The runway incursion happens before any extra lights will save your skin.

Negative. Use your eyeballs, not your mic. Too many people think that looking for other traffic and preventing a traffic incursion happens on the radio, and it doesn't. The first and last line of defense is in your skull, on each side of the bridge of your nose (or in the case of george bush, directly adjacent to one another).

While awareness of clearances is important, being aware on the runway is equally important. One person makes a wrong turn onto an active runway. One person is cleared to land and the other takes an inordinate amount of time getting off the runway. You might say that safety is the controller telling each party what to do...but at the end of the day, the controller goes home and feels bad, while the parties involved get buried and feel dead.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, talk. Too many people believe that the radio is there to find traffic for them. Not true of the TCAS, not true of Com 1 or Com 2.

As for the " I don't wanna get hit while sitting in position" reasoning, why don't you just look towards the approach path as you enter the active for position?!

That works well if you're in visibility that enables you to do so, and if you're going to be departing immediately, and there's no traffic crossing intentionally or inadvertantly downfield, and no service vehicles that make a mistake...but ground incursions happen all the time. Never intentionally.

How many times have you been cleared to position and hold? Ever had traffic cleared to land on top of you, or cleared to land on a parallel runway and take yours instead, while you're in position? I have. In addition to seeing, I plan to be seen. Be conspicuous when you're on the runway. Everybody and their dog is either trying to land on it or cross it; it's the most likely place in the world for traffic to try to violate some law of quantum physics and occupy the same space at the same time. Look like your life depends on it, and make yourself visible to others trying to do the same thing.

 

[FracCapt]

Hmmmmm....since the notam at MKE says transponders ON while taxiing, I guess you'll be one of the ones being called by ground to be reminded to turn their transponder on. Just like the highly paid professionals at NWA that need to be told to do so as well.

It's real simple, when you tune in the atis, listen to it.

Granted, people need to listen to the ATIS more carefully at MKE...because I often hear ground ask people "is your transponder on?"....but as you know, MKE is a fairly rare case. Most airports don't have ground radar at this time, so taxiing with your transponder on does nothing but annoy other pilots that see tons of targets on the TCAS screen while on approach. I actually went missed at TEB(on the ILS 19) not too long ago because on about a 2 mile final a target popped up(on TCAS) 300' below us(we were 600' above field elevation) and about 1.5 miles ahead. We were IMC...weather was 300' and 2 miles. We had been warned previously about a helicopter on approach to Jet Aviation that, according to the tower, was "not a factor". Well, as it turned out...it was some jackass holding short with his transponder on(which was reporting 300' high). We couldn't be sure what it was at the time...so we hauled ass out of there and came back around.

 

[NJA Capt]

I don't see what the big deal is with strobes effecting vision.

It matters a lot when your strobe is eye level to the plane holding behind you! You look like a freaking DISCO ball sitting in front of everyones' face. So much for night vision.

My (sarcastic) thanks to the C90 and Mooney pilots everywhere. (You know who you are.)
Here is a quote from Whelen Engineering Company Inc.'s (Whelen Strobes) STC:

"Install the following placard, Whelen Part No. A421-1, or other FAA approved equivalent, in view of the pilot:


WARNING TURN OFF STROBE LIGHTS WHEN TAXING IN VICINITY OF OTHER AIRCRAFT OR DURING FLIGHT THROUGH CLOUDS, FOG OR HAZE. STANDARD POSITION LIGHTS TO BE ON FOR ALL NIGHT OPERATIONS.”


http://pb.whelen.com/aviation/Avserman.pdf
Page 21 if you care.

​

 

[Bandit60]

Granted, people need to listen to the ATIS more carefully at MKE...because I often hear ground ask people "is your transponder on?"....but as you know, MKE is a fairly rare case. Most airports don't have ground radar at this time, so taxiing with your transponder on does nothing but annoy other pilots that see tons of targets on the TCAS screen while on approach. I actually went missed at TEB(on the ILS 19) not too long ago because on about a 2 mile final a target popped up(on TCAS) 300' below us(we were 600' above field elevation) and about 1.5 miles ahead. We were IMC...weather was 300' and 2 miles. We had been warned previously about a helicopter on approach to Jet Aviation that, according to the tower, was "not a factor". Well, as it turned out...it was some jackass holding short with his transponder on(which was reporting 300' high). We couldn't be sure what it was at the time...so we hauled ass out of there and came back around.

Did you get an RA? When we run our tcas on the ground it will give ta's only and you should recieve an TA if your system is working properly.

 

[atrdriver]

Did you get an RA? When we run our tcas on the ground it will give ta's only and you should recieve an TA if your system is working properly.

Yeah, most TCAS systems go into TA only mode below 500 feet AGL with the gear down, but if you hit someone I bet the boom would be just as loud whether the TCAS was screaming "traffic" or "climb, climb".

 

[FN FAL]

Granted, people need to listen to the ATIS more carefully at MKE...because I often hear ground ask people "is your transponder on?"....but as you know, MKE is a fairly rare case. Most airports don't have ground radar at this time, so taxiing with your transponder on does nothing but annoy other pilots that see tons of targets on the TCAS screen while on approach. I actually went missed at TEB(on the ILS 19) not too long ago because on about a 2 mile final a target popped up(on TCAS) 300' below us(we were 600' above field elevation) and about 1.5 miles ahead. We were IMC...weather was 300' and 2 miles. We had been warned previously about a helicopter on approach to Jet Aviation that, according to the tower, was "not a factor". Well, as it turned out...it was some jackass holding short with his transponder on(which was reporting 300' high). We couldn't be sure what it was at the time...so we hauled ass out of there and came back around.

I hear ya frac!

I was occasionally contracted out to right seat with a salty dog corporate pilot in a B-100 King air. He had been on with Simmons and flew a lot of 135 prior to his taking on the management of this one aircraft flight department.

Anyway, I was riding with him once and we were taxiing out to the end of a runway to depart and I asked him if he wanted the transponder off. He said no, that at least a TCAS equiped aircraft would know we were there.

That was his take on the situation. TCAS guy could always make a blind announcement and we would have given our position report to them. They could have asked us to standby the transponder to verify that was us.

Not everybody is talking on the right CTAF when they think they should, and not everybody who is announcing in the "blind" is broadcasting anything at all. You have to notice that your number two radio has failed, before you know it has failed.

As far as the situation at MKE, I'm sure that set up is going to become more widespread in the future, or at least something similar. Runway incursions and security issues will dictate it. Maybe the transponders of the future should incorporate a connection to the squat switch, so that it broadcasts a "ground" indication?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

avbug has it dead on.

USE YOUR EYBALLS! Do not rely on the radio to tell the story, look out side!!
In the flare at U42 with the DC-3 after dropping out 33 jumpers, I look up and there is a 206 headed right at us about 15 feet off the runway. Co-pilot is screaming on the radio and of course no reply. I head to one side of the rwy and he passes cockpit level off our right side by maybe 5 or 6 ft. Got back on the centerline and headed to the ramp. This guy used the last half of the rwy and just barely got stopped. I was shut-down and out of the plane when he pulled up to the FBO. I was standing right next to the lineman, waiting. Hot? You could say that. So who ambles out but farmer John!! About 75 or so, with the required Dekalb Corn hat and overalls! Took a bit of wind out of my sails at this point but I did ask if he had been on the right frequency for the airport. His response? A seriously glazed look on his face and the reply of "Frequency of what?" After a slightly stunned pause I asked if he had seen the fairly large airplane going the other way on his runway of choice. "No, big airplanes don't use these short runways, I had to really hit the brakes to stop on this one. Do you sell me my gas?"

LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!!!!

 

[FN FAL]

avbug has it dead on.

USE YOUR EYBALLS! Do not rely on the radio to tell the story, look out side!!
In the flare at U42 with the DC-3 after dropping out 33 jumpers, I look up and there is a 206 headed right at us about 15 feet off the runway. Co-pilot is screaming on the radio and of course no reply. I head to one side of the rwy and he passes cockpit level off our right side by maybe 5 or 6 ft. Got back on the centerline and headed to the ramp....
LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!!!!

I heard that. I was departing on a 5,000 foot runway at this non-towered airport. It was summer time evening and I had the sun directly in my face. I announced in the blind on taxi, hold short and taking the runway for departure in a C-208. I was set up with 20 degrees of flaps for my usual "short field" departure, and with runway items complete..."we go now!"

Just after a quick scan of the engine guages and 60 knots cross check, the aircraft accelerated through 70 knots and I rotate, I hear an ultralight announcing that he's just about to cross the numbers on the opposite end.

I key the mike and tell the ultralight that I'm going to side step to the north and pass by him and I tell him that if he wants to, he can maintain centerline or sidestep south. It worked out very well and as I enjoyed watching him fly by, I realized that these things happen and "see and avoid" is great concept...if you can SEE!