Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[h25b]

Ok, then why are you flying sell-off trips for Netjets if you despise them so much?

O.K., you can't read either... I don't fly NetJets' sell-offs but there's other aircraft on our same certificate that do. Like I said before NONE of the pilots on those aircraft (and yes I've asked them ALL) are going to deny ANY charter (including NetJets). This is a particularly interesting fact because all of the aircraft are managed airplanes in which each department has their own Chief Pilot that would theoretically have the power to deny. So this proves to me that NOONE is going to honor this threat... Sounds like that collective, "up yours" to me that I forecast.

As for the percentages that I spoke of earlier. Trying to compare us two is definately an apples/oranges deal. The percentages salary plays to the overall equation DOES play a part (how much is just symantics). Like I said before, we're typically in the 15-20% of total cost of operations so obviously it sticks out pretty big on the spreadsheet. So your salaries might not be the deal breaker, but when your trying to keep things in house every little bit helps.

 

[El Chupacabra]

As for the percentages that I spoke of earlier. Trying to compare us two is definately an apples/oranges deal. The percentages salary plays to the overall equation DOES play a part (how much is just symantics). Like I said before, we're typically in the 15-20% of total cost of operations so obviously it sticks out pretty big on the spreadsheet. So your salaries might not be the deal breaker, but when your trying to keep things in house every little bit helps.

To beat a dead horse.... This is just not true.

If a flight department is replaced with a QuarterShare... The savings in pilot salaries is not significant compared to the aquisition cost savings of a $5 million quartershare compared to the $19 million whole airplane for a CE-750. Its the $14 million difference and the Cost of Capital. 1.4 million/yr appreciation on that $14 million if invested in something returning 10%

In this situation I could be earning 3 or 4 times what you are paid and it still is better to go with a 1/4 share than full ownership.

Alternatively for the cost of owning and operating a Citation V maybe an owner could ride in a G-IV or a Falcon instead. Or be able to Upgrade or downgrade depending upon the needs of the trip instead of owning multiple types of aircraft.

Its OK if you don't like me because I fly fractional... just don't kid yourself about why flight departments close down. Our pay has next to nothing to do with it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

No one in the real world cares about your NJA Teamster scab list.

I wish I were talking about Teasmster-only SCAB list. I am talking about the same SCAB list that floats around APA, ALPA, SWAPA, IPA... That is why this is such a big deal.

The SCAB list also will affect recall rights for pilots headed back to various majors someday. Several airlnes have specifically stated in their by-laws that no SCABS will be retained on the seniority list.

I am just trying to release information, not smear a fear campaign. We have menagement for that. Pilots can choose to support, attack, defend or verbally trash talk the SCAB policy. It is what it is. It is what it has been for several decades.

Those wishing to read up on the history of strikes and SCABS will want to go to the local bookstore and read up on "Flying the Line: Part 1" and "Flying the Line: Part 2". For the record we are all currently writing Part 3.

Those pilots wanting to get official word on the SCAB policy from ASAP/Teamsters Local 1108 should do so by contacting the office.

Here's the link for contact info.

http://www.asapflightdeck.com/contact.html

 

[FLYLOW22]

So far you have been pretty successful at turning off your owners and you are now working on the entire GA community.

For the record... Owner displeasure has been directed towards NJA corporate. It has been directed towards NJA corporate for LYING to prospective owners about the compensation offered to NJA pilots and the level of happiness currently held by NJA pilots in regards to labor/management relations. LYING... pure and simple. Just to give you all an idea of the response management gives when confronted with an accusationof LYING they say that, "it's not lying if there was no intent". Owners were told in OMA at the NetJets booth that NJA pilots make up to $150,000. Those same owners were a bit upset when they walked to our demonstration outside at learned that only the top 1% of NJA pilots make that money (BBJ) and that actually the average income for us is around $45,000. We have heard salesmen tell prosective Owners that we make "Airline Pilot" salary... they forget to add the word REGIONAL to the Airline Pilot salary description. There is a HUGE play on words coming from the top here right now. We are choosing to clear the air on the issue.

We take great care of our Owners. We are professionals. The reaction in OMA during picketing from Owners is typical the reaction from Owner resposes aborad. "Shocked and appauled".

We've been lied to for years... the Owners have too but are only now realizing it.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I recommend remaining calm ... and resisting the temptation to incite people. We may not be released by the NMB and in that case there will definitely be no strike. A lot of blood pressures will have been raised for nothing.

"War is the Continuation of Politics... and Politics is the Continuation of War... by other means."

Mao Tse Tung quoting and paraphrasing Clausewitz in his Little Red Book




​

 

[FLYLOW22]

It's been asked before, and I'll ask it again: Are you going to pay this pilot's bills when he gets fired for fighting your fight? Is he going to get a preferential interview with NetJets when you go back to work after a strike?

If the answer is no, well, you better get your union leadership educated and under control.

Brett,

You are a great read! I do have some Part 135 charter experience... not alot but enought to remember what it was like. I also appreciate your educational description of "the way it is". I have had "that boss" before that was fixated on money, money, money and nothing else. It's a tough position. It's a tough position over here too (understatement).

So here we are.

Do you think that preferential interviews written into a back-to-work agreement following a strike at NJA would be a desirable thing to have? If so, I would be happy to send that idea up for review. Quite honestly I think it's the very least that the pilots of NJA could do to return the favor.

Part 135 pilots do not pay Union dues so therefore would fall outside of the provisions of strike pay paid by IBT.

Like I said, this is a tough position for all involved. I would rather find solutions than point fingers on this issue.

P.S. I missed seeing you play this past season. I hope you get a good contract!

 

[FLYLOW22]

I recommend remaining calm ... and resisting the temptation to incite people. We may not be released by the NMB and in that case there will definitely be no strike. A lot of blood pressures will have been raised for nothing.

"War is the Continuation of Politics... and Politics is the Continuation of War... by other means."


​

Exactly.

 

[Brett Hull]

FLYLOW,

Thanks! I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about this strike stuff! I'm not hitting the ice again unless I get 20% more! I only made $5 Mil last year and I have mouths to feed! [/Iverson]

Talkin' about not knowing what you guys are smoking, those NHLPA guys must be puffing away on some good &hit. The World Series of Poker gets better ratings on ESPN than the NHL and these geniuses think they're going to get more money?

Anywho, I honestly don't know what a good answer would be. But if you guys expect the 135 guys to put their livelyhoods on the line for you, like you said, preferential interviews are the LEAST you could do. However, I think they should be completely left out of this unless they physically sit their fat a$$es in a QS airplane and hit the start button.

I understand the strike pay issue since they're not union members, but the whole jist of this argument is that you guys can't expect them to put their necks on the line for you and not get something in return. I'm sure you understand that. The unfortunate part is that there are people in a position of power who doesn't understand, or they forgot where they came from.

I wish you guys the best. I, like everyone else around here, have a friend who works with you. He flies a Citation - I think you guys have one or two of those. I don't want to see him and his family take a bigger financial hit than they already have. The pay in too many segments of this industry is ridiculous for what we do.

The ultimate solution if it were up to me: I'd say F*** the RLA and beginning at 5:00 a.m. tomorrow, you guys would walk. When a thousand Johnny Richboy's are dressing-down RTS because he and his mistress can't get to Barbados, I think that a contract would get done likkedy-split. Only then would they understand how unified you are.

So the union would get a fine. Big effing deal. Money well spent.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

For the record... Owner displeasure has been directed towards NJA corporate. It has been directed towards NJA corporate for LYING to prospective owners about the compensation offered to NJA pilots and the level of happiness currently held by NJA pilots in regards to labor/management relations. LYING... pure and simple. Just to give you all an idea of the response management gives when confronted with an accusationof LYING they say that, "it's not lying if there was no intent". Owners were told in OMA at the NetJets booth that NJA pilots make up to $150,000. Those same owners were a bit upset when they walked to our demonstration outside at learned that only the top 1% of NJA pilots make that money (BBJ) and that actually the average income for us is around $45,000. We have heard salesmen tell prosective Owners that we make "Airline Pilot" salary... they forget to add the word REGIONAL to the Airline Pilot salary description. There is a HUGE play on words coming from the top here right now. We are choosing to clear the air on the issue.

We take great care of our Owners. We are professionals. The reaction in OMA during picketing from Owners is typical the reaction from Owner resposes aborad. "Shocked and appauled".

We've been lied to for years... the Owners have too but are only now realizing it.

You are too new...

Dont ever think an owner gives 2 $hits about you after you give him a drink and turn to the cockpit.

If BH tells him his rates go up 1% to accomodate your raise....he will threaten to leave and suggest replacing you. You're a pilot. a driver. They act nice to you but just expect you to do your job. If you wont, they will be happy to show you the door and replace you. even over a penny.

Remember this is not airline management you are dealing with. These folks look more than 2 years down the line.

Dont ever kid yourself or let someone talk you into thinking you cant be replaced tommorrow.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I agree with some of what you said. Most of the Owners feedback that I have heard has taken issue with the fact that they have been lied to by NetJets. They also have taken issue with the rate of turnover and the effects that that has on percieved safety. They are the ones saying, "we don't care what it costs. we want you pilots compensated well and not thinkng of how you will pay your bills or tired because you have a second job". These are the two most common things said by NJA Owners... and not as a captive audience on the plane. These comments are unsolicited and numerous. Yes, they will applaude (as people who have mastered using other people's time and money to make money) the ability of the company to do the same with us... but only to a point. A lean mixture kills the engine at some point. It's time to add some fuel.

 

[CMHTroll]

Now you are getting it.

I recommend remaining calm ... and resisting the temptation to incite people. We may not be released by the NMB and in that case there will definitely be no strike. A lot of blood pressures will have been raised for nothing.

This is the smartest thing you have evr said, considering the fact that your UNion has not been bargaining in good faith and you WILL be put in a deep freeze, and not released for an extended period of time. You will have a lot of time to think about what you are or not not going to do next time.

 

[El Chupacabra]

You got it backwards on who is not bargaining in good faith.

I already know what I will do either way. Don't need any time to think about it.

I will give myself a raise. I will put myself up for hire to the highest bidder but first I will take another 30K type rating with me ... in either a G200 or Falcon 2000. and they will also need to type someone to replace me in the X.

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

The owners know they are being lied too is a very true statement. I here it at least twice weekly from owners and they are P.O.
The bottom line is the company made a decision to invest in a UNION busting consultant instead of ending this issue years ago- at a cheaper price I might add- and have alienated their core customers, the bill paying owners in Quarter Share airplanes. Additionally; the quick buck tactic of selling more Marquis cards than the fleet can support has added to this customer service deficient management attitude- money now! Not to mention the additional wear and tear on the fleet, which reduces the residual value of the aircraft as the owners sell them back to the company?
The company is going down the tubes in my opinion due to a narrowly defined business plan- break the UNION at all cost. When in fact had an agreement been worked out in 2002 they would had saved hundred of millions in lost business. Not to mention the cash paid to anti-union consultants that only resulted in the pilots voting down the last TA by 82%, firing their Members Elected Council and Teamsters Local 284-which gave the company any and all requested Letters of Understanding requested by the company to circumvent the current Collective Bargaining Agreement in affect. The company’s investment into these anti-union consultants has only solidified the pilot group into one impressive determined group. In fact the pilots should pay these consultants for the motivation they have provided us.
In short the company shot their selves in the foot; a wound that could prove fatal to NetJets as we know it. The men who could make a difference in this issue are dead set against Unions because it prevents them from firing at will; loyal workers who cut into their bottom lines through Retirement Benefits, Health Care, Longevity Pay and Safety related demanded changes on the shop floor. These men are “narrow” minded and will lose nothing when this company fails, they have their millions- to hell with the rest of them; is their apparent attitude. They nothing of leadership, they give billions to charity when employees of their own company qualify for WICK and government assistance. They make statements to the press that they have 34.6 Billion dollars laying around looking for investments but won’t invest into their greatest assets- their employees. Truly NARROW minded with blinders.
The only thing the pilots of NetJets wanted in the beginning was an equally fair salary structure, benefits, and fly from home that every other NON-UNION part of this company enjoys. Now the pilots will not back down from their stated goals of their new UNION-Local 1108. The PILOTS of Local 1108- are the UNION! We will not settle for less than 6s.........
Many of us are ready to move to non-flying jobs when this company folds and are not afraid of being men about that transition. We will not accept another slap in the face...
Netjets has grown on the sweat on this underpaid employee group and we want a return on our investment or close the doors!
I have sat through many company briefings and believed all of the good will which was told to me by members of management in the past; I shall never make that mistake again and the proof is in the actions of this company over the last several years at the negotiating table.

 

[Starman]

I have sat through many company briefings and believed all of the good will which was told to me by members of management in the past; I shall never make that mistake again and the proof is in the actions of this company over the last several years at the negotiating table.

I heard at this week's recurrent that no one even said good morning or anything to BB. No one answered any question he asked. Hell, no one even nodded. His normal 2 hour "we love the pilots but can't pay'em" briefing only last 35 minutes and he was red-faced when he left.

Hey BB - quit cussing at the negotiators and get the deal done. We'll be glad to talk to you then. Until then, talk to the hand.

 

[FamilyGuy]

The owners know they are being lied too is a very true statement. I here it at least twice weekly from owners and they are P.O.
The bottom line is the company made a decision to invest in a UNION busting consultant instead of ending this issue years ago- at a cheaper price I might add- and have alienated their core customers, the bill paying owners in Quarter Share airplanes. Additionally; the quick buck tactic of selling more Marquis cards than the fleet can support has added to this customer service deficient management attitude- money now! Not to mention the additional wear and tear on the fleet, which reduces the residual value of the aircraft as the owners sell them back to the company?
The company is going down the tubes in my opinion due to a narrowly defined business plan- break the UNION at all cost. When in fact had an agreement been worked out in 2002 they would had saved hundred of millions in lost business. Not to mention the cash paid to anti-union consultants that only resulted in the pilots voting down the last TA by 82%, firing their Members Elected Council and Teamsters Local 284-which gave the company any and all requested Letters of Understanding requested by the company to circumvent the current Collective Bargaining Agreement in affect. The company’s investment into these anti-union consultants has only solidified the pilot group into one impressive determined group. In fact the pilots should pay these consultants for the motivation they have provided us.
In short the company shot their selves in the foot; a wound that could prove fatal to NetJets as we know it. The men who could make a difference in this issue are dead set against Unions because it prevents them from firing at will; loyal workers who cut into their bottom lines through Retirement Benefits, Health Care, Longevity Pay and Safety related demanded changes on the shop floor. These men are “narrow” minded and will lose nothing when this company fails, they have their millions- to hell with the rest of them; is their apparent attitude. They nothing of leadership, they give billions to charity when employees of their own company qualify for WICK and government assistance. They make statements to the press that they have 34.6 Billion dollars laying around looking for investments but won’t invest into their greatest assets- their employees. Truly NARROW minded with blinders.
The only thing the pilots of NetJets wanted in the beginning was an equally fair salary structure, benefits, and fly from home that every other NON-UNION part of this company enjoys. Now the pilots will not back down from their stated goals of their new UNION-Local 1108. The PILOTS of Local 1108- are the UNION! We will not settle for less than 6s.........
Many of us are ready to move to non-flying jobs when this company folds and are not afraid of being men about that transition. We will not accept another slap in the face...
Netjets has grown on the sweat on this underpaid employee group and we want a return on our investment or close the doors!
I have sat through many company briefings and believed all of the good will which was told to me by members of management in the past; I shall never make that mistake again and the proof is in the actions of this company over the last several years at the negotiating table.

PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE. Good Gawd man, this long, rambling diatribe doesnt even make sense....lets examine the nonsensical portions of this post more closely....

Additionally; the quick buck tactic of selling more Marquis cards than the fleet can support has added to this customer service deficient management attitude- money now! Not to mention the additional wear and tear on the fleet, which reduces the residual value of the aircraft as the owners sell them back to the company?

Marquis doesnt result in any more 'wear and tear' than any other share sold. Marquis buys shares and resells them into smaller blocks than the 50 hrs minimum.

The company is going down the tubes in my opinion due to a narrowly defined business plan- break the UNION at all cost. When in fact had an agreement been worked out in 2002 they would had saved hundred of millions in lost business.

It takes two to tango. The union could have had an agreement years ago but didnt want an agreement during 2002-2003 when the economy was in the tank....why else would you spend years dickering over contractual provisions and not even talk wages? They didnt want an agreement because the economy was horrible and they wouldnt be able to make their 'double my salary' demands. When the economy picks up in 2004 then they are in a mad rush to get a deal done and they start their mad-cap claims of 1300 days of waiting on management....lets face it, union leadership and the company reached a TA last fall and the pilots voted it down, changed their MEC, Local, and Negotiating team, forcing everyone to start over.....so you really havent been waiting 1300 days....more like 120.

Not to mention the cash paid to anti-union consultants that only resulted in the pilots voting down the last TA by 82%, firing their Members Elected Council and Teamsters Local 284-which gave the company any and all requested Letters of Understanding requested by the company to circumvent the current Collective Bargaining Agreement in affect. The company’s investment into these anti-union consultants has only solidified the pilot group into one impressive determined group. In fact the pilots should pay these consultants for the motivation they have provided us.

CONTRADICTORY....why would the company stall giving the pilots a contract and buy anti-union consultants to try and break the union if the MEC was a bunch of puppets that gave the company everything they wanted???

they give billions to charity

Really? who are they giving these BILLIONS to? Thats quite a magic trick when the company is barely making a profit in the US market....

employees of their own company qualify for WICK and government assistance.

Not the 'reduced price lunch' speech again!?!? How about the union leaders being quoted in the Columbus Dispatch that the pilots average between $50,000 - $72,000? Last time I looked that doesnt qualify for WICK. And dont start about the first year FO wages, because everyone knows that the entire aviation industry is set up with low entry level wages and your union refused a company offer of an immediate 20% increase for that group, no strings attached.

They make statements to the press that they have 34.6 Billion dollars laying around looking for investments but won’t invest into their greatest assets- their employees. Truly NARROW minded with blinders.

Arent we talking about NetJets? I've never seen any statements in the press that NetJets had 34 Billion laying around. You must be talking about Berkshire.....but does that mean you're suggesting that Geico and Pampered Chef employees pay for your salary demands?

The only thing the pilots of NetJets wanted in the beginning was an equally fair salary structure, benefits, and fly from home that every other NON-UNION part of this company enjoys.

Sounds good, but are you going to give the same level of productivity? Union shops have high levels of bureaucracy and inefficiency associated with them. You dont see the company taking an entire negotiating team off flight duty at NJI or EJM. are you going to give up the grievance process that you've overwhelmed with your thousands of grievances this year? Are you going to give up the double dip of crew meals and per diem?

Many of us are ready to move to non-flying jobs when this company folds and are not afraid of being men about that transition. We will not accept another slap in the face...
Netjets has grown on the sweat on this underpaid employee group and we want a return on our investment or close the doors!

NetJets has grown on the efforts of all employees (including the pilots), Mr. Santulli's vision and guidance (without him the fractional segment and its thousands of pilot jobs wouldnt exist), and Berkshire's capital. All of those groups deserve a return on their investment. One group cant take 300% of the annual profit and hamstring the groups that also built the company.

 

[DO-82 driver]

FamilyGuy...you're an idiot!!!!! Its a shame you took all that time to disect the previous posts to make stupid and irrational points....

Let's see what happens this afternoon in Washington......New Chapter coming up.

 

[h25b]

Seems like things are starting to "simma-down."

The union must be telling people to quiet down. I mean really, is a slap in the face to the rest of the GA community effective if its been forecast in advance ??? Even netjetwife is quiet. Strangely quiet, maybe she's down registering for reduced price lunches or possibly baking cookies for the next informational picket.

 

[pilotyip]

Family guy, there you go again bringing in reality. This is a pilot board. We do not deal with reality here.

 

[El Chupacabra]

h2,

Decision of the NMB may be today. I would think chatter would pickup after that is known.

 

[x402]

h2,

Decision of the NMB may be today. I would think chatter would pickup after that is known.

I don't think they have to decide today. But, I'm sure we'll be kept informed.