Straight shootin' about JetBlue

[Falconjet]

Although the contract says you can't go back to your old 121 carrier, it has no mention of what the penalty would be if you did. I can only assume they would have to sue you to keep you from going back to work for your old carrier. Nothing in the contract (apparently) prevents you from going to work for a different 121 carrier (as long as it isn't your old one) or any 121 carrier if you never worked for a 121 carrier before jB.

In fact, I personally know a guy very well who went to jB, flew the line for about a month and then left for a different 121 carrier (freight). jB was his first 121 carrier. There was no training contract or legal action against him, and he was free to go. That was 3 years ago.

That may help alleviate any fears somebody might have of not being able to get out of the contract if they want to go work somewhere else.

FJ

 

[TonyC]

..., because the contract auto-extends, just like other contracts under the Railway Labor Act.

Well, not exactly. With RLA contracts, there is not a provision for either party to terminate by providing notice within three (3) months of the Agreement expiration date. RLA contracts continue idefinitely, and become amendable. There is no expiration date.


But - - and I concede this was your point - - it's close.






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[TonyC]

Background can be everything on how one can approach this profession. Not better or worse, just different.

Well, Mr TAZ MAN, riddle me this. Which profession are we approaching in this thread, either in the original topic, or the topic to which it has crept?

I believe the object of discussion at this moment is the underlying purpose as it may or may not pertain to unions of the 5-year contract for pilots.

wndshr postulated that pilots have 5-year contracts simply because FAs have 5-year contracts, and the employee groups must be treated equally. "[C]an you imagine," he asked, "the stink it would raise if the pilots didn't have the same thing...[?]"

Perhaps it's my military background (highly doubtful) but I cannot imagine much of a stink about it. Nevertheless, I HAVE witnessed a stink raised, not only among outside parties, both interested and disinterested alike, but among JetBlue pilots themselves about the pitiful low wage rates proposed, no, introduced, for JetBlue mainline pilots to fly RJs. I have read pilots who have rationalized the low rates, believing that they will be increased if and when the RJ proves to be profitable. But I have not read or heard of a single JetBlue pilot that is satisfied with the rates as they stand.

We have witnessed a "stink" about the RJ rates. What has been the result? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. No change.

So, let's revisit my statement, "Yeah, kinda like the stink the pilots raised about the RJ rates - - that had a huge impact." For the context challenged among us, allow me to point out that the statement I made was intended as sarcasm. I could rephrase the above to remove the sarcasm and it would look like this: "The pilots raised a stink about the RJ rates, and there was no impact."


Now, would you care to refute that statement, or do you still have an issue with my background?



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[TAZ MAN]

Well, Mr TAZ MAN, riddle me this. Which profession are we approaching in this thread, either in the original topic, or the topic to which it has crept?

I believe the object of discussion at this moment is the underlying purpose as it may or may not pertain to unions of the 5-year contract for pilots.

wndshr postulated that pilots have 5-year contracts simply because FAs have 5-year contracts, and the employee groups must be treated equally. "[C]an you imagine," he asked, "the stink it would raise if the pilots didn't have the same thing...[?]"

Perhaps it's my military background (highly doubtful) but I cannot imagine much of a stink about it. Nevertheless, I HAVE witnessed a stink raised, not only among outside parties, both interested and disinterested alike, but among JetBlue pilots themselves about the pitiful low wage rates proposed, no, introduced, for JetBlue mainline pilots to fly RJs. I have read pilots who have rationalized the low rates, believing that they will be increased if and when the RJ proves to be profitable. But I have not read or heard of a single JetBlue pilot that is satisfied with the rates as they stand.

We have witnessed a "stink" about the RJ rates. What has been the result? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. No change.

So, let's revisit my statement, "Yeah, kinda like the stink the pilots raised about the RJ rates - - that had a huge impact." For the context challenged among us, allow me to point out that the statement I made was intended as sarcasm. I could rephrase the above to remove the sarcasm and it would look like this: "The pilots raised a stink about the RJ rates, and there was no impact."


Now, would you care to refute that statement, or do you still have an issue with my background?



.

Touch a nerve? Simple comment on a different background can give one a different perspective. You automatically thought it was about you. Interesting.

How could you take that statement and spin to an issue with you. I could have been supporting you. Interesting.

You sure put alot of words in my mouth this morning. May I suggest decaf?

 

[TonyC]

Touch a nerve? Simple comment on a different background can give one a different perspective. You automatically thought it was about you. Interesting.

How could you take that statement and spin to an issue with you. Interesting.

A subtle hint was the fact that you began by quoting me.





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[TAZ MAN]

A subtle hint was the fact that you began by quoting me.





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Who else said the statement? Geeze dude. Lighten up! You need to take a break from this forum. Your holding on a little to tight.

 

[klhoard]

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Whoop, Whoop!!!!!, Taz Alert, Taz Alert; Whoop Whoop!!!
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[Dizel8]

99% of all questions concerning jetblue, could be handled by using the search function.

(Now TonyC, do take the 99% number with a grain of salt, I made a wag, it is not a scientific survey and is for illustrational purposes only)

 

[radarlove]

Well, not exactly. With RLA contracts, there is not a provision for either party to terminate by providing notice within three (3) months of the Agreement expiration date. RLA contracts continue idefinitely, and become amendable. There is no expiration date.


But - - and I concede this was your point - - it's close.

I hesitated when I wrote that, since this actually doesn't fall under the RLA, since there is no union involved. I just assumed that they were modeling this "model contract" off of what an actual union contract would look like.

I'm not arguing that this is as good as a union contract, just that it's about halfeway there. Usually items such as firing for cause, seniority, etc. aren't established until the first union contract is voted in. In this case, the non-union JBLU pilots get a lot of protections they otherwise wouldn't, lessening the call for unionization.

But on the downside, as you mentioned, there really is no pilot advocate to enforce rights and no structured grievance procedure to decide the grey areas. 190 rates are a case in point, Pilots: "Please raise them!", Management: "No."

My original point was that I find it amusing that the fact a company is progessive enough to offer worker rights that are generally only won after a labor organization battle and a contract negotiation is viewed by the cynical pilots in this economy as somehow "bad".

The contract isn't as good as a union contract, but it's certainly better than nothing!

 

[Hobiehawker]

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Whoop, Whoop!!!!!, Taz Alert, Taz Alert; Whoop Whoop!!!
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Your a coward. Hide behind that mask. Its the only power you have. You personally give Fedex pilots a bad name. Never any substance to any post. You really are a flamebaiting coward.

 

[radarlove]

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That may help alleviate any fears somebody might have of not being able to get out of the contract if they want to go work somewhere else.

FJ

There isn't any worry about "getting out" of the contract, lots of pilots have left JBLU. Again, the contract is the carrot to keep a union from forming, not a stick to keep pilots in indentured servitude.

 

[klhoard]

Your a coward. Hide behind that mask. Its the only power you have. You personally give Fedex pilots a bad name. Never any substance to any post. You really are a flamebaiting coward.

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Whoop, Whoop, HOBIE ALERT, HOBIE ALERT!!!!, Whoop, Whoop. . .
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BTW - I'm not very good at hiding. . . . Sorry I missed you earlier. . .
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[TAZ MAN]

Your a coward. Hide behind that mask. Its the only power you have. You personally give Fedex pilots a bad name. Never any substance to any post. You really are a flamebaiting coward.

Wow! An ally! Don't give this guy much thought. He's not worth it.

 

[Lake Alice]

People are always going to take issue with others who are happy with a particular job.


JetBlue is a good place to work. Im sure it has its problems. Afterall, the company is just out of its infancy stage. FedEx, SWA etc, were all the same at some point.
JetBlue isnt bringing down the industry anymore than a regional, a legacy or a freight carrier. They are doing what it takes right now to build a solid foundation. Every company underpaid its pilots at some point and most have rewarded them later on. JetBlue probably wont be any different.

Personaly I find most of these posts comical. People come out of the woodwork to point out faults or make dated comparisons. Why? who knows, the reasons are too many to number.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

When you think about how JetBlue will treat its employees it will have everything to do with how its competitors treat their employees. It will also be shaped by how competitor's employees treat their company. If other airlines have gutted wages and benefits, look for JetBlue to react. JetBlue's management relies on comparing what is offered by union carriers and then reacts to it. JetBlue's emphasis on keeping unions out demands it. Just by focusing on staying competitive with industry average, JetBlue saves a percentage of what a union shop would demand, brilliant.

One could then argue JetBlue pilots are getting the benefits of a union without the dues. Wages could be higher but they are high enough to attract new pilots and keep those on the payroll happy. Brilliant.

But in bad times the double edged sword will cut, or may just cut off the fat. There is nothing to keep JetBlue from reducing said wages and benefits. Ironically, this also takes advantage of traditional airline negotiated contracts. When current wages and benefits are unsupportable, a company has to continue to honor them all the way into BK. JetBlue will be able to cut at will. Once again, brilliant.

It may be criminal to offer the lowered wages being paid now, but the young pilot locked into this career is not looking at that. They are looking at how much debt is piling on at some carriers and how others are buying new airplanes. Union stubborness is not causing the industry woes, but they are exacerbating it at some companies by protecting unsustainable pensions. Who will pay for it? Management? Government? No way. The bottom 50% of employees who have 10+ years left at the company will suck it up.


What kind of airline do you think the new crop of young pilots want to work for??

 

[radarlove]

There is nothing to keep JetBlue from reducing said wages and benefits. Ironically, this also takes advantage of traditional airline negotiated contracts. When current wages and benefits are unsupportable, a company has to continue to honor them all the way into BK. JetBlue will be able to cut at will. Once again, brilliant.

That's simply not true. JBLU's pilot contract does not allow them to unilaterally change pay. That's what I was talking about earlier--the contract offers benefits that are generally only available to union shops.

Maybe some JBLU guy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that the contract terms are just that: contract terms that can't be modified without both parties agreeing.

What really surprised me was the no-furlough clause. I wonder if they are kicking themselves for popping that one in there?

The E190 pay rates are a different story: since different aircraft types weren't included in the contract, the pay was fair game for the company to pick at will. I wonder if they sent out an addendum to the contract that guys had to sign when the E190 pay was introduced. I guess at that time, anyone could have refused.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

That's simply not true. JBLU's pilot contract does not allow them to unilaterally change pay. That's what I was talking about earlier--the contract offers benefits that are generally only available to union shops.

O.K. I stand corrected. But that doesn't make sense to me.

Do JetBlue pilots typically fly more than guarantee? Do they do it so often that they come to expect it? If so, then a pay cut could be imposed just by taking away optional overtime flying. Since overtime is 150% of pay that would be significant.

Then when the next 5 year contract comes up, they can reduce the rates.

Not saying it is likely or bad, just looking at what is legal and possible.

The no furlough during the 5 year period is a pretty sweet deal.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I guess at that time, anyone could have refused.

And if you refuse how much notice do you have to give, 2 weeks?

 

[Lake Alice]

In the midst of current instability and ever increasing fuel prices a company who treats its employees fairly and has a fair chance of making it is all you can ask for.

Until 9-11, the majority of pilots would not have looked twice at SWA or FedEx for example. Why, because of low pay(comparatively) on one hand and back side of the clock flying on the other. Today in the post 9-11 era these are two of the most sought after jobs around.

Why, because of perceived stability. The big bucks still reign in at FedEx and SWA is humane towards its employees.

JetBlue is just another facet to this conversation. Some stability, good treatment and maybe some good things to come in the future.

Like I said, 10 years ago pilots rarely looked at FedEx and SWA as careers. Today those guys look pretty friggin' smart.

I extend the question as well, what type of airline do you want to work for?

 

[radarlove]

Do JetBlue pilots typically fly more than guarantee? Do they do it so often that they come to expect it? If so, then a pay cut could be imposed just by taking away optional overtime flying. Since overtime is 150% of pay that would be significant.

That's a good point. I suspect, by reading the JBLU postings that the 150% over-ride or overtime or whatever they call it is being bastardized by the super-senior guys sucking up a gazillion flight hours and the junior guys on reserve getting guarantee and none of the tasty overtime.

I think your suspicion is right, with the overtime pay scale, they can significantly reduce costs by simply limiting the flying so those guys that are earning 130 credit hours are suddenly making 70 instead.

 

[Tip Tank]

Good God y'all. Starting a thread on JetBlue is like throwing a match into a fireworks factory!

But to those who answered my initial question, THANK YOU.

To those who love to argue I will add only this: the airline industry is riddled with unions because over time, unions have proven to be an effective tool (not always, but more often than not). Nobody really wants a union, but union's are born out of necessity. At JetBlue things are good now (insert 190 pay arguement here if you must, but newhires know this coming in). Most JB pilots will probably agrue that a union is not needed now. But when things do get tough for JB in the future, the real character of their management will be seen. If they are anything like SWA managers, everything will be fine. JB will take care of their employees. But if they are not, and there is no union to protect each pilot, pilots will once again be offerred to the gods of aviation as sacrificial lambs.

Peace out.
- TT

 

[Dizel8]

"I suspect, by reading the JBLU postings that the 150% over-ride or overtime or whatever they call it is being bastardized by the super-senior guys sucking up a gazillion flight hours and the junior guys on reserve getting guarantee and none of the tasty overtime".

You forgot to call them the boys in leather

As for raking in the overtime, some people work a lot, some people don't. I know super senior guys who much prefer to have time off, I know junior guys who will work to the bone. Heck, there are months were I fly less than reserve guarantee. I prefer to be home.

What is a problem, but is so at all places, is that you cannot get a great schedule and lots of flying, if you are junior. As always, there is a tradeoff.

I think jetblue is a nice place to work and I think mangement do some good things and some bad things, but more good than bad. I am however afraid, that some people who hire on, forget that it is after all still an airline with all the realities that entails such as red eyes, seniority, scheduling. Failing to understand that, they get disappointed with the company.

Heck, what do I know, I am just along for the ride

 

[GogglesPisano]

Can anyone tell me conclusively if going to a job fair has any impact on getting an interview?

No "it can't hurt" please.

 

[TheTIC]

Fly Boeing Jets,

Nice Avatar

the tic

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hi Goggles,Attending a job fair neither helps or hurts, unless you're Kit Darby, then it helps... him that is. Apply online and keep updating. Thats what makes a difference.

 

[B6Guy]

Reality

It is very hard to average more than 95-100 credit hours. First is the FAA 30/7 and 250/ quarter and 1000/year for block.

We have very few rigged trips and if they are rigged it is because they per day are not that productive so if you try to stack a lot of rigged trips you run into the 24/7 rule.

A check airman can do pretty good, but that job becomes a labor of love after awhile.

So most guys work above minumum and average say 85 per month so 15 hrs at premium pay. It is a rare month to exceed 95-100. Our Scheduling rules only let us schedule 95 hours, you can go over during IROPS, with vacation pay, training pay etc.

130 credit hours with premium over 70 is pretty much impossible without IROPs and a lot of luck.

 

[wndshr]

Do you have anything to contribute that is pertinent to the topic?

What does my background have to do with anything?







well tony c....i am glad you asked! please don't take this personally, but rather as a lesson to those with similar career profiles as yourself. we all know who they are!!

i am curious what makes you the resident "expert" in commercial PASSENGER aviation.....without commercial PASSENGER aviation experience? most of the bubbas i have flown with and jumpseated with at the legacies....and even B6 know when to "shut up and color" when it comes to understanding the true economics of the passenger airline industry. they learn A LOT while sitting next to ol timers who have been through 5 airlines and 2 furloughs from jobs they were promised to retire from! you can't GAIN experience from reading all the books....just as you can't assume the job as captain by reading FLYING magazine! EXPERIENCE is what gives you credibility.

if i wanted to know how many gallons of gas a KC135 holds?....i would ask the tony c....cubic volume of one of those fedex plastic things that goes into the back of the plane?...ask tony c. what is the max radiation exposure that you are allowed over a certain period of time? ask tony c. what is a sort in MEM? VMO on a 727? etc etc.

unfortunately, your lack of experience in commercial passenger aviation cannot go unnoticed. your opinions and comments don't seem to have any basis that is relevant in this particular sector of aviation...that is why i am GUESSING there is a CARGO forum on flightinfo??? i don't know...just a guess!!! LOL

anyway, please don't be discouraged from commenting but i am sure you are aware that your opinions are not only free, (you get what you pay for!!!) but they come from no real understanding of an industry for which you have no experience.

remember....EXPERIENCE EARNS CREDIBILITY and RESPECT...not the other way around!

at ease...........

 

[klhoard]

Do you have anything to contribute that is pertinent to the topic?

What does my background have to do with anything?







well tony c....i am glad you asked! please don't take this personally, but rather as a lesson to those with similar career profiles as yourself. we all know who they are!!

i am curious what makes you the resident "expert" in commercial PASSENGER aviation.....without commercial PASSENGER aviation experience? most of the bubbas i have flown with and jumpseated with at the legacies....and even B6 know when to "shut up and color" when it comes to understanding the true economics of the passenger airline industry. they learn A LOT while sitting next to ol timers who have been through 5 airlines and 2 furloughs from jobs they were promised to retire from! you can't GAIN experience from reading all the books....just as you can't assume the job as captain by reading FLYING magazine! EXPERIENCE is what gives you credibility.

if i wanted to know how many gallons of gas a KC135 holds?....i would ask the tony c....cubic volume of one of those fedex plastic things that goes into the back of the plane?...ask tony c. what is the max radiation exposure that you are allowed over a certain period of time? ask tony c. what is a sort in MEM? VMO on a 727? etc etc.

unfortunately, your lack of experience in commercial passenger aviation cannot go unnoticed. your opinions and comments don't seem to have any basis that is relevant in this particular sector of aviation...that is why i am GUESSING there is a CARGO forum on flightinfo??? i don't know...just a guess!!! LOL

anyway, please don't be discouraged from commenting but i am sure you are aware that your opinions are not only free, (you get what you pay for!!!) but they come from no real understanding of an industry for which you have no experience.

remember....EXPERIENCE EARNS CREDIBILITY and RESPECT...not the other way around!

at ease...........

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Lighten up, Frances. . . .
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[Redmeat]

Do you have anything to contribute that is pertinent to the topic?

What does my background have to do with anything?







well tony c....i am glad you asked! please don't take this personally, but rather as a lesson to those with similar career profiles as yourself. we all know who they are!!

i am curious what makes you the resident "expert" in commercial PASSENGER aviation.....without commercial PASSENGER aviation experience? most of the bubbas i have flown with and jumpseated with at the legacies....and even B6 know when to "shut up and color" when it comes to understanding the true economics of the passenger airline industry. they learn A LOT while sitting next to ol timers who have been through 5 airlines and 2 furloughs from jobs they were promised to retire from! you can't GAIN experience from reading all the books....just as you can't assume the job as captain by reading FLYING magazine! EXPERIENCE is what gives you credibility.

if i wanted to know how many gallons of gas a KC135 holds?....i would ask the tony c....cubic volume of one of those fedex plastic things that goes into the back of the plane?...ask tony c. what is the max radiation exposure that you are allowed over a certain period of time? ask tony c. what is a sort in MEM? VMO on a 727? etc etc.

unfortunately, your lack of experience in commercial passenger aviation cannot go unnoticed. your opinions and comments don't seem to have any basis that is relevant in this particular sector of aviation...that is why i am GUESSING there is a CARGO forum on flightinfo??? i don't know...just a guess!!! LOL

anyway, please don't be discouraged from commenting but i am sure you are aware that your opinions are not only free, (you get what you pay for!!!) but they come from no real understanding of an industry for which you have no experience.

remember....EXPERIENCE EARNS CREDIBILITY and RESPECT...not the other way around!

at ease...........

I am not even going to attempt to expound on that piece of linguistic and informational perfection. So, I will just put it in my own words. "Know-it-all" Tony C bugs the hell out of me too.

 

[Dizel8]

I am only afraid of my spelling