Straight in approach at Non Controlled Field

[flyrunner80]

Was doing a trip last week (PART 91) and we flew into a non controlled field (class Golf not echo). When we were setting up for landing, I asked the captain, "If there isn't any traffic here do you want to do a straight in visual approach?" (because the rwy in use was 9 and our heading was 090, would have been convienent)

He gave me a look like "Are you nuts" and told me the FAA will write you up if you do that. He said it was illegal? All I know is that the AIM gives a recommendation in how to enter the pattern (45 downwind) and only left hand pattern unless told otherwise.

Was I wrong in suggestion that? Is it illegal?

Just want other imput.

 

[Swerpipe]

Straight in-visual at un-controlled not smart/safe

At un-controlled airports straight-in visual offset left or right and overfly the runway to examine its condition then turn downwind and do a normal pattern. Maybe there is someone on the runway with no comm, may be runway has debris, livestock, men working on the runway with no previous NOTAM (has happened to me),etc.. A few extra minutes could save you a lot of trouble. Exception: there are other aircraft in the pattern with whom you are communicating and you proceed straight in given that they have just used the runway and you can get that type of information from them.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

No, it is not illegal.

I do not have my regs in front of me, but look at something like 91.126 and 91.127 or 91.136 and 91.137, Operations in Class E and G airspace. The regs state that you must make all turns to the left, with the exception that if there is a visual indicator showing that all turns be made to the right, then you make all turns to the right.

You can legally enter the pattern at any point, including straight in, as long as the turns are made in the proper direction.

Now, what constitutes a straigh in approach apparently depends upon your class of aircraft. The FAA issued citations to the flight crew of a B737 for entering straight in at 5 miles and stated in their summary that 5 miles was not enough for a 73. The slight right turn they made to line up with the runway violated the afore mentioned reg.

 

[flyrunner80]

Thanks DAS you answered my question and mentioned the incident with the 737 I was looking for also.

 

[Singlecoil]

The FAA issued citations to the flight crew of a B737 for entering straight in at 5 miles and stated in their summary that 5 miles was not enough for a 73. The slight right turn they made to line up with the runway violated the afore mentioned reg.

Do you have a reference for that? Airline? City? Anything?

 

[SIR MILO]

You guys are right on many things, but the basis of it being illegal and why the captain might of given you a look as to why it would be illegal is that your maximum for a straight in is a 5 mile final..The 737 crew that I know that was violated a number of years ago now was when I lived in Alaska was a Alaska Airlines crew setup for a final beyond 5 miles and then got themselves by calling out there position beyond 5 miles started out with something like saying they were on a 8 mile final over the radio. A fed heard these calls on the ground and then violated them. 5 miles is your maximum straight in, 5 miles is your max final off a base leg. That's it..
Also watch what you say on the radio, doesn't matter what the freq is, that wasn't the only incident up there where someone got themselves in trouble that way up there..THere are alot more people listening in the lower 48, so watch out...

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Where the heck does this 5 mile rule come from? Doesn't ring the slightest bell for me.
A straight in approach is not an unreasonable idea. It is done all the time. I am not sure that it is really illegal but I do know there are some FAA inspectors who get their panties in a wad over it. Most could care less.

What is the practical difference between doing a straight in visual vs getting an ILS clearance in VMC? Thats right... none... no practical difference at all as far as posing a danger to local traffic.

My current policy varies. The types of airports that will always get a proper pattern entry are like East Hampton (busy) and Bar Harbor (local FAA is known to have panties in a bunch)

 

[SIR MILO]

Look in your AIM for one.
What is the practical difference?
do you have an istrument license?
Then you should know that an ILS clearance vs a visual clearance allows for different seperation.
Since you go into these BIG busy airports you would know that on a day were everyone has to shoot the ILS, everyone is getting slowed down and the final is much longer. CALLED REQUIRED SEPERATION
The 5 mile rule applies to uncontrolled airports not somewhere where the tower creates the final..duh
4000 hrs, think you would know the basics

 

[Checks]

I have never heard that "rule" either. How about a reference?

 

[capt_zman]

Sir milo, simmer down bro. I've been flying into an uncontrolled airport for 20 years and have never heard of a 5 mile rule either. Separation is provided by the local controllers until you either cancel in the air or on the ground. IFR aircraft waiting to takeoff or approach will not get a release/clearance until that cancellation happens. As for VFR traffic, you are responsible to avoid that traffic.

As for uncontrolled airports, it is exactly that, uncontrolled. You can do a 20 mile straight in final if you want, enter the pattern on an upwind, crosswind, downwind, base or whatever. The only thing that is questionable is your etiquette.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

SIR MILO we are talking about non-towered fields here. If you shoot an ILS (which is straight in) and you are in VMC conditions (its done all the time) you will not be provided separation from VFR traffic-- its still see and avoid... the same from all practical viewpoints as doing a straight in visual approach.

And East Hampton is not a BIG busy airport. Its a SMALL busy airport. Thanks very much.

 

[Singlecoil]

I thought you may have been thinking of the Kotzebue incident. It is my understanding that the fed was in the jumpseat, and the crew turned final from a right base inside of 5 miles. The fed didn't say anything to the crew, then they received a letter of investigation in the mail. The five mile rule that came out of this was this: if you want to turn a right base when there is left traffic, do it OUTSIDE of a five mile final. Inside of five miles, you are in the traffic pattern and must make turns in the proper direction. I've done lots of straight ins with feds in the jumpseat and haven't heard a thing about it not being a correct procedure. Particularly in higher speed aircraft, it is easier to blend in with light aircraft when you do a straight-in. They can extend downwind to follow you a lot easier than you can go overhead and turn in behind them.

 

[profile]

Single is correct, the issue is not straight in but making turns contrary to the traffic pattern too close in. The distance is actually 4 miles, incidentally, and that was established by FAA in a legal interp and upheld by NTSB in a full review trying to appeal a violation.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Single is correct, the issue is not straight in but making turns contrary to the traffic pattern too close in. The distance is actually 4 miles, incidentally, and that was established by FAA in a legal interp and upheld by NTSB in a full review trying to appeal a violation.

Profile, do you have a link to the FAA's legal interpretation? I don't doubt you, I just wanted to read it for my own edification. Thanks.

 

[flyrunner80]

Didn't realize I'd get this much of a response, but it's what I was looking for!!!

 

[O-Line]

Straight ins are completely legal. You simply can't make an opposite direction turn (i.e. a right base at a runway with left traffic). Also remember 91.113g right of way rules, lower traffic has right of way, traffic on final has right of way over everyone.


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4236.PDF

 

[philo beddoe]

I talked to a fed from ak about this incident. It involved a questionable wiiide right base, if you get what I mean. Both my airlines did straight ins all the time to uncontrolled fields. With faa on board. Much safer than ridiculous amounts of maneuvering ata TPA 500' abv all the piston traffic. Speed adjustments and courteous radio work always made it work out fine.

 

[IP076]

Look in your AIM for one.
What is the practical difference?
do you have an istrument license?
Then you should know that an ILS clearance vs a visual clearance allows for different seperation.
Since you go into these BIG busy airports you would know that on a day were everyone has to shoot the ILS, everyone is getting slowed down and the final is much longer. CALLED REQUIRED SEPERATION
The 5 mile rule applies to uncontrolled airports not somewhere where the tower creates the final..duh
4000 hrs, think you would know the basics

Almost a million hours...and not much difference....

For one, its called an "Instrument Rating". A license is something you get to drive a truck, a "Certificate" or "Rating" allows you to operate an aircraft.

Another point, there is no such thing as a "Controlled" or "uncontrolled" airport, they are classifications of airspace. Airport's are either "Towered" or "Non-Towered". You can have a "Towered" airport that is surrounded by "Un-Controlled" airspace.

There is no practical difference in flying an ILS on an IFR clearance to a non-towered airport in VMC and flying a straight in approach.. ATC is responsible for seperating the IFR traffic. You are still responsible for separation from the VFR traffic in the pattern. Once on CTAF, you will need to co-ordinate with the other traffic in the area for your arrival.

 

[prpjt]

A license is something you get to drive a truck, a "Certificate" or "Rating" allows you to operate an aircraft.

It would appear that the FAA disagrees with you on that particular point.

From the FAA website:

How do I obtain commercial pilot license?

How do I find out if someone is an FAA-licensed pilot or mechanic?


How do I get the new plastic credit card style license (certificate) to replace my paper license?


If I change the address on my pilot's license, do I need a new license?


What are the differences in the types of pilot licenses?


What requirements must I meet to get a mechanic's license?

 

[belchfire]

One of the uncontrolled airports my outfit
serves has an analretentive "safety officer"
of some sort that periodically threatens
to call the FAA about out "straight in"
approaches. Don't know what his issue is,
seem like the slow manueverable aircraft all
have the right of way over our instrument
operations...I never cancel till I'm on the
ground...

I have (for some time now) been either flying
a full pattern or joining the loc outside the
marker and using appropriate calls to indicate
which runway I am "circling" to in not going to
the runway aligned with the LOC. The LOC is
served by arcs for both right and left turns...
looks to me like if you are established on the
localizer outside the marker they shouldn't be
able to touch you.

Another choice would be to ask for a heading
to join the LOC (or whatever serves as the final
approach course). If Center/approach gives you
instructions or a clearance to do so, and it doesn't
violate any other regs, you're covered.