Still ordering...AVOLAR

[Boz]

At least by them getting more jets. I am no expert but:

MORE JETS = MORE PILOTS (hopefully they will be highly qualified furloughee types, since they just can't catch a break)


UAL business jet unit orders Learjets
NEW ORLEANS, Dec 12 (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc.

(Toronto:BBDb.TO - news) said on Wednesday that Avolar, the fractional business jet subsidiary of United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - news), has placed firm orders for 25 Learjets and options for an additional 32.

If all options are exercised, the deal could be worth $632 million (C$990 million), Bombardier said of the agreement announced at a National Business Aviation Association meeting in New Orleans.

The deal includes 15 firm super light Bombardier Learjet 45 and 10 firm mid-size Bombardier Learjet 60 aircraft with deliveries expected to start in mid 2002. The options are for 20 Learjet 45 and 12 Learjet 60 business jets.

Avolar announced in November that it had agreed to market corporate jetliners produced by European aircraft manufacturer Airbus. United created the business jet unit in May aimed at offering alternatives for the lucrative business market. It is expected to begin operations in 2002.

Bombardier will provide initial pilot and maintenance training for Avolar crews and the aircraft will be maintained and serviced at Bombardier, and Bombardier-authorized service centers.

 

[ukcats]

Avolar Learjets

Looks like more trouble for Flexjet. If Bombardier is selling Learjets to Avolar, then what does that say about how much confidence parent company Bombardier has in Flexjet.

Also, if you are in the market to buy a fraction of a Lear, wouldn't the United name and reputation impress Daddy Warbucks more than, (giggle) Flexjet?

Has Bombardier given up on Flexjet?

 

[ultrarunner]

Bombardier is in the business of selling jets. I suspect this is a business decision.

Just keeps getting more interesting. Think about all the 60 qualified guys that will now have other employment options.

As they say, "...as quick as one door closes, another one opens..."

 

[Boz]

As they say, "...as quick as one door closes, another one opens..."

Ultrarunner, I wish this was true for our furloughed friends. But it isn't! The only door opening is the unemployment office door.

Boz

 

[ultrarunner]

I hear ya Boz, and I'm in the same boat. Patience is the key. IF this Avolar thing goes there will be plenty of opportunites starting this comming year extending for a few years as this company takes deliveries. Currently, Avolar has over 300 aircraft on order/option to be delivered over a 4 year period, and I would expect the orders to increase.

I'm not sure how the fracts staff, (maybe an Exec jet guru can chime in here) but I suspect a conservative estimate is 6 to 8 bodies per plane. So you'll likely need to hire around 1800 to 2400 pilots over a 4 year period......some agressive hiring to be sure.

So, hang in there. Most of us have been enjoying the good life for the past few years, and now we're getting a bit of a reality check. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[flyingdog]

Maybe this will give a small understanding to unexplained friendship between Avolar ( name translated from the latin verb TO FLY and not from some religious I don't know what - to correct a gentleman who tried to explain the name in an earlier thread) and FlexJet: A few middle and high operational managers from FlexJet were offered similar or higher position by Avolar. Position accepted by all of them. Plus some FlexJet pilots got hired by Avolar.

 

[ultrarunner]

Very interesting. Not surprising as Avolar needs to begin with some people who have some idea of how to run this type of business.

What has been obviously absent is the lack of posts by Avolar pilots OR by pilots who know some recent Avolar new-hires. I mean 'cmon, they have already snagged some UAL furloughees, and now some Flexjet people. Someone has GOT to start giving it up!

All this has been very quiet.

 

[LR45JI]

Relations

I don't think there are any relations between Flex and Avolar. If you look at the past there are tons of Flexjet mgmt. people that have left for other fractionals. When they left there were rumors but nothing ever happens.

I would expect to see more Flex mgmt. leaving soon but that's just the life of management.

 

[flyingdog]

Dear LR45JI,

I have a strange feeling that you are a FlexJet 45 driver; so in that case you know very well that regarding Flex Management going to other fractionals..... just ONE went to EJA, SOME to Avolar, and majority lost their jobs("to much love for each other") finding something through different other fields. And also you know very well the rumor (MORE OF A HOPE) for a majority of flexjet drivers(at least 45/60s) to get hired by Avolar. I wish them so but I doubt it. Anyway if Avolar gets Lears they will get a very good deal in training their pilots on that new Bombardier's facility next to SimuFlite at DFW - better than to struggle with FSI.
However talking about Avolar drivers I hear that they start with a good pay, in the range of a Capt for other fracs, but they have a 22 catch - very difficult schedule. Don't take my word on this, because I haven't confirmed it yet.

 

[Gumby]

Avolar

Maybe there ARE some Avolar folks here, and their just in the "stealth" mode?

 

[LR45JI]

flyingdog,

I WAS a Flex45 driver - now I work for another fractional by choice. I don't know exactually how many mgmt. people went where - but yes there were a few that went to Avolar. However, I still don't believe there is any type of "underlying" relationship with the two companies.


So basically, I don't know anything - just what I see and perceive. I guess only time will tell what is going to happen.

 

[ultrarunner]

Re: Avolar

Maybe there ARE some Avolar folks here, and their just in the "stealth" mode?

Hey, that's not fair) Give us some scoopage

 

[Gumby]

Avolar...

Lets just say, that in my 20 years in the
business, this is the most promising
place I have been associated with!!

I can honestly say that the excitement
meter is full scale, and the journey
looks to be way cool...G man.

 

[passion4flying]

I am curious. Is Avolar still going to try to recruit alot of their pilots from the corporate world or has that changed with the recent world events. and still curious about mins for hiring.

 

[P3-Adub]

Gumby,

Care to give us some of the vitals ? Such as, how many pilots so far, how many clients have signed up, benies, pay, hiring process, 15 UAL pilots so far, original plans for pass travel, ALPA representation, numbers to come, training details, 91/135/121, and anything else that comes to mind ???????????????

There are a lot of folks out there that would love to join you and need more details. Looking at March 2002 as a significant date for me at UAL, hope there is an opportunity at Avolar. Fingers are crossed.

Thanks in advance for any info you are privy to and are able to talk about.

Thanks a bunch.

Jeff

 

[puddlejumper]

FlexJet - Avolar non-compete clause?

As an aspiring fractional pilot (freelance/unemployed corporate), I've been trying to keep up on the latest in the industry. I found this little tidbit on the Fractional Pilot's - FlexJet Message Board. What do you think Mr. G-Man?

http://pub96.ezboard.com/ffractionalpilotsfrm0

Dateline Dallas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flexjet has signed a non-compete clause with Avolar!

Avalor can not hire Flexjet employees at all. This is not a surprise considering they are paying their FOs $6,000 a month and their Capt's $9,000 a month. These pay figures are fact and come from two ex-Flexers I met in TEB who are currently on furlough from United and in class for the DA50ex at Avolar.

Why would Flexjet risk losing their under paid Lear employees to a company with a better future and better pay. Not to mention the fact that they will soon be protected from idiotic mgmt decisions through an alliance with ALPA.

We can't win. Things might be worse next year as we will have a net loss of three to five total aircraft fleetwide. Why are we shrinking when everyone else is experiencing record growth?!

WOW. How depressing!

"Come on now, send in 20 bucks, you'll be glad you did "
-PJ

 

[skydiverdriver]

I'm wondering why Avolar has created such an uproar, but Delta having their own corporate operation hasn't. I havn't heard a peep from anybody, except that it used to be part of Comair, and that makes it different. Well, what if United purchased Jet Express from Comair and made it into Avolar, wouldn't that be the same? I wonder what furloughed guys at Delta think about this. Just curious. Good luck to you guys.

 

[Boz]

Gumby,

It sounds like you are living it up with AVOLAR! So C'mon and tell us what its like! It sounds like a to good to be true deal.

So please shed some light on the operation if you can!

Thanks,

Boz

 

[Gumby]

Avolar

I havent heard anything about the non-compete clause. This is not say it's not the case. I've been on the road, and not near Chicago. The outlook here is very promising..Everyone that I have come into contact with has been a blast!!

The a/c orders are piling up..and they are equipping them very nicely. There are alot of issues that have to be worked out, but thats usually the case w/a startup. I dont see a union around these parts anytime soon.

The projections are for 1200+ pilots in 5 years. The pay has been quoted in earlier posts, so i wont repeat them.

I'm pretty excited to say the least, and it takes alot..So I'm looking forward to see whats behind this door..and hoping its
my last...G

 

[Marko Ramius]

Gumby,

Any info on what us UAL furloughees want to know like what they are looking for in terms of flight time, time frame on future interviews/class dates, etc. Everything else sounds good, have you run into any of the 15 UAL furloughees that have been hired there? If so what have they told you? Thanks.

 

[Gumby]

Avolar

In response to Markos' question, Yes I have come to know the
firloughed guys..all a real good bunch, were all havinga blast, and real excited to be here. The one thing that we all have in common is prior 50 exp, and typed, or prior corp. exp. I understand with all the resumes on file from furloughed guys, that a VERY small fraction are being considered because of the lack of the afformentioned restrictions.

I hope this answers a few questions....Gman..

 

[Boz]

Thanks Gumby,

We sure like all the info you have shared with us. Good to hear it is a blast and hopefully they start interviewing more crews in the coming new year.

Merry Christmas and good luck at your new home.

Boz

 

[Marko Ramius]

Thank you very much for the info Gumby, and good luck with Avolar. My background is 91(non corporate) and 121 so I guess I won't be joining the party. Probably just as well, I wouldn't know what to do with that much money, my unemployment checks keep my budget much more in line! Have fun!

 

[BIGSLAW]

recent article on avolar

USA Today had an article on Avolar (12/18/01) It was not very informative as far as pilots are concerned, however, it did mention that it was currently seeking (or was in negotiations with) some possible investors. That in the end UAL will or could be a minority share holder in Avolar. This may explain Bombardier's intrest...look at Cessna and TAG??.....Anyhow, its just a thought.

 

[P3-Adub]

Gumby,

Are you saying that ALL of the pilots hired so far are Falcon 50 typed ? Any brand new types in the bunch ? Have all of you flown captain on the Falcon 50 on domestic and international trips ?

Just curious, having flown the Gulfstream II & III along with the Falcon 10, I am wondering if "similar" corporate experience will suffice ? Could come in really handy in March for me.

Any idea when the first Gs arrive ? What is the first few aircraft that are expected to arrive and will all of you get typed in those prior to them showing up or will they bring on more folks that are experienced and typed to fly them ? Will the Falcon 50s then go away ? I have seen the orders to date, pretty impressive, I would think at some point they will take pilots with prior experience but not necessarily a type rating.

I know that you are getting a bunch of questions, I appreciate what you have shared to date. Tell some of the UAL 15 about this site and see if they would be interested in helping out some fellow furloughees or furloughees to come.

Thanks,

 

[Gumby]

Avolar

P3 Dubbie....
With respect to the originial bunch of guys that have bben hired, it was a 50/50 spread on typed/non-typed. All had prior corp.exp.in one form or another.

The first G-4's are in completion, and will arrive by May. I'm pretty sure they will go out and look for prior "G" folks. If you are a furloughed cat, and with prior "G" experience, I would think you would have a leg up. I honestly dont know how the seniority issue with regard to giving it up, will unfold. The new 50EX's will arrive around the same time frame, to replaced the leased ones.

I hope this helps out some...G

 

[Sleepyhead]

Airbus staffing

Gumby,

thanks for the inside info.
Have you heard anything about how they
plan to staff the Airbus.?

 

[P3-Adub]

Hey Gumby,

Thanks for the info. Have you started flying any clients yet ? The artical in USA Today stated that there are 12 or so clients so far, hope that number climbs dramatically with all of the planes coming. How about part 91 vs 135, what is the mix ?

What kind of travel benies are you guys getting and do they move you around on United's mainline ? I have heard that you can live where you like, this would give the idea that Avolar pilots can pass travel on UAL ? That or they are given actual confirmed reservations, positive space ? Any concentration on where the clients are coming from or is it spread evenly around the country ? How about international flying, doing any of that yet ? Thanks in advance, we really appreciate you taking the time to fill us in on what you can.

Boz,

From what I have seen, the Airbus A 320s will be only flown by UAL mainline pilots. It was even confirmed in the same USA Today artical, that is to say only as reliable as any other news artical. Stuart Oran was quoted anyway. I think these A320s will be tough sells, the BBJ has been very successful despite it's early projections. They now have something like 100+ sold and of those I thing about half are flying with the rest in works ??? How many big biz jets can the market support ? I also think that this flying will go somewhat junior based on what attitudes have been like for UAL starting Avolar. Not too many can see past the bag slinging issue, boy are they wrong ! Corporate can be a lot of fun ! Anyway, I hope that the A320s will create additional need thus stemming the reduction of pilots at UAL. Maybe we will need to bring people back ! Hope so anyway. 15 airplanes create quite a few jobs. Do you have other info suggesting that UAL pilots will not fly them ?

Take care,

Jeff

 

[Boz]

P-3,

I really think the Airbus Corp jets will be flown by mainline UAL pilots, just have not heard anything from the MEC or LEC regarding this issue. Other than that, I'm as curious as the next guy as to how this is going to play out.

Personally, I think UAL might be onto something here. As a pilot I think it would be awesome to have the opportunity to fly mainline UAL routes and the excitement of corporate flying.

Happy Holiday's and fly safe!

Boz

 

[Gumby]

Avolar

Well, lets see where to start!!!
The A-319's will be staffed by the UAL mainline guys..
Avolar will be obtaining its 121 before too long,
on the Legacy. I know there are some IntL, trips coming up, and so far we are doing a bunch of prospective owner trips. So, things are looking up....

Alot of the benefits, such as travel privs' etc, are still be
ironed out!! I'm hoping alot of the benefits will mirror UAL's!!

Thats it for now kids..Gumby out!!!