StarFish to based in Denver

[P3-Adub]

UAl Going Away ???

Afraid not, much to a lot of folks dissmay, United will be around for a long time to come. There will be plenty of pie to go around for everyone. Don't jump too quick, United is still in BK and the cards are not fully on the table. Remember the idiots that shelved the Shuttle did so at a time when it just becoming profitable. Should have expanded at that time rather than quit. May not be the darling new startup that everyone is so enamored with these days but it is activity that is somewhat proactive rather than hanging on to the same old business model that does not work anymore. Let the passengers speak for themselves as to what they will like and dislike. Too many self proclaimed aviation experts on these boards.

General Lee, you should work in marketing !!! Never seen anyone toot their own horn as much as you, nice to see you guys have something to talk about ! Song, who would have thought airlines would be called such goofy names only a few years ago? Starfish ??? Sure hope that is not what Tilton calls it, the name really stinks in my opinion. I suggest Shuttle by United, as before but with new management that is committed to making it work. Save a bunch on labeling and other startup costs. The Airbus makes some sense as we will be able to fly the longer routes and offer similar ammenities as our LCC competitors, please lets not be too trivial on detail, most pax don't really care that much as long as it is cheap.

LCCs are here to stay I am afraid. Low wages are here to stay as well I fear. Good thing we all love to fly and are such giving souls, otherwise airline management would have to pay decent salaries once again, remember those days ? Most of the commentators on these boards don't I see.

 

[F9 Driver]

I love the idea about the projectors P-3

I'll forward that to marketing

My crystal ball is fuzzy too, but the ones saying UAL is on its' last legs aren't just self proclaimed know-it-alls. People getting paid for their opinions (professionals?) seem to vote no confidence whenever asked.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~130~1641277,00.html

"What should we call the new low-cost carrier United Airlines unveiled Wednesday at Denver International Airport?

Branding is one of the steps that usually comes before the unveiling, but as far as anybody knows, United has only code-named this effort Starfish - a creature that is A) flightless and B) more or less blind.

Should we call it Frozen Mackerel? Or Flounder? Or Half-Baked Clam?

"You don't get up and announce a new airline and don't even know what you're going to call it," quips Evergreen-based aviation consultant Mike Boyd. "It clearly shows that they don't have any direction as they wind through bankruptcy." "

" "There is nothing inherently flawed about the logic of such an operation for United," says Lehman Brothers analyst Gary Chase. "But the carrier does face huge execution challenges in getting it right." And Joseph Schwieterman, a professor and transportation expert at DePaul University in Chicago, says the plan is disappointingly small, considering the threat United faces: "United needs to think more boldly about this competitive problem."

On the other hand, the plan - though possibly desperate and ill-conceived - may allow United to experiment with a segment of the market that it does not understand without putting a lot at risk.

Because odds may be against United succeeding in this arena, the airline is wise to start small.

For now, the plan is so small, nobody feels threatened, including United's unions and Denver's key low-cost carrier Frontier Airlines.

"The danger for Frontier is that they die of laughter," Boyd says.

Frontier spokesman Joe Hodas did, however, manage to answer the phone between gasps of air.

"It's fine for them to experiment," he says. "But they are in bankruptcy. They haven't even shown that they can lose less than $100 million in a month." "

 

[Mugs]

F9:

Isn't Al Lewis the aviation expert that wrote the article a few months ago about the pilot profession boiling down to nothing more than drinking coffee and having the skill to locate the autopilot button? If I recall, those were his exact thoughts on what pilots were really all about.



Reuters
United Needs Issues Solved Before Filing
Friday September 19, 7:16 pm ET
By Kathy Fieweger


CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines needs to resolve four major issues before filing an updated business plan to the federal government seeking loan guarantees, an executive said on Friday.
Jake Brace, United's Chief Financial Officer, told Reuters after a court hearing here that there was no specific timetable by which United, the world's second largest airline and a unit of UAL Corp. (OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News), planned to file the updated plan with the Air Transportation Stabilization Board in Washington.



The agency was charged with handing out up to $10 billion in government-backed loans to worthy airlines. United applied for such backing of a $2.0 billion loan in the summer of 2002 but was rejected late last year, prompting it to file for bankruptcy.

Brace said the four issues that need to be resolved center on pensions, a contractual agreement with Atlantic Coast Airlines Inc. (NasdaqNM:ACAI - News), municipal bond litigation and rejection of aircraft leases under what is known as section 1110 of the bankruptcy code.

Under the agency's mandate, the government can back 90 percent of the private sector loan but the airline must arrange the other 10 percent on its own.

Now, as the Chapter 11 process continues to unfold, United has begun its search for exit financing and intends to apply to the government for the loan guarantees to raise cash needed to get out of bankruptcy.

Brace also said United may seek to raise more than $2 billion in financing through other means, but declined to specify in what form or through what capital markets.

INDUSTRY REVENUE IMPROVING

After war in Iraq and the deadly Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome pummeled airline revenues yet again earlier this year, Brace said the revenue environment has improved significantly, aiding United in updating its business plan as part of the Chapter 11 exit strategy.

"The revenue environment's turned around considerably," Brace said. "Bookings are good."

August unit revenue for United rose 15 percent, Brace said, well above the industry's 9-percent systemwide gain.

However, the pension issues alone are significant, and while the airline continues to lobby for legislative changes to cope with a massive underfunded pension obligation, it is unclear whether Washington will be willing to step in.

Both the Senate and House are working on pension funding bills that would give a break to U.S. companies, including airlines that are struggling to keep traditional pensions funded.

A Senate panel has already approved one version.

 

[F9 Driver]

I didn't know he was on my jumpseat

I didn't read that article, and don't think he calls himself an aviation expert. He's just a business writer I think. The fifth estate - go figure!

What ever happened to the deadline that the ATSB established for loan applications (about a year ago?) I guess that Tilton doesn't think it applies to him? Or am I missing something?

 

[rightrudder]

You are missing something. UAL was told they could reapply later when they had their business plan reorganized. They did meet the initial deadline, so it will not be a new application, just an updated one.

By the way, why such hostility toward UAL? You guys at F9 are doing very well these days. Can't you be satisfied that your company is growing, thriving and that your own job is secure? You seem to take joy in UAL's problems.

 

[F9 Driver]

Sorry to all

I do have my back up a bit. I apologize to all those UAL worker bees who I may have offended.

Denver press has been soooo pro Untied for so long I find it ironic to find any negitive UAL press in the Post.

UAL is playing dirty, and I'm annoyed. Not only are they blocking our expansion on A concourse, and spending additional money that they don't have on rent doing so. They've gone as far as to advertise; if you book a flight on F9 (fully refundable I assume), fly the same day / same route on UAL, and bring in the F9 ticket they will give you access to their club at DEN.

UAL takes a laughable, but media intensive, swipe at F9 with Starfish, and I felt obligated to gloat. I suppose its the same reason Dems gloats at GOP mistakes, and vice versa.

"You guys at F9 are doing very well these days. Can't you be satisfied that your company is growing, thriving and that your own job is secure?"

Rightruder,

We are doing well today, but this is aviation, and today's winners are tomorrow's Eastern & Pan Am (and I'm just venting!)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone - unless UAL management is reading this, then deal with it I'll try and keep my pie hole shut in the future, but I'm on reserve, and am easily ammused

 

[crashpad]

Ditto F9. I think of it as a sporting event. We're the players as well as the spectators. You cheer for the home team, and boo the opposition. Of course, no one likes to see a whole team carted off the field.... unless we're thinking in terms of gladiators. Then, it's O.K.

 

[P3-Adub]

Media, can't shoot em !

Funny how the same folks that were saying UAL will liquidate for sure, now as the emergence seems almost certain, are badgering them for the route they are taking. Maybe if so qualified Mike Boyd (?) the aviation consultant, should step up and get into aviation ? Not sure but the only consulting seems to be to the press, always so factual ????????

A serious game of poker IMHO by UAL mgmnt. Don't think I would show all of my cards too soon either, Tilton is doing more right that wrong, again IMHO. A bit of a setback in the retirement programs, we'll see what the hammer does to UAL pension plan. Time will tell if UAL is either muddling along or getting prepared for a very competetive market by using BK to their fullest advantage.

F9, Frontier is a great airline and competition will be good for both Denver carriers. Will be good for everyone. Nobody likes to be trashed by the press, you guys are the darling right now. The underdog I suppose. Enjoying those trips down to sunny Mexico ?? Yes I am jealous ! Any good layovers in Cabo yet ?

Gotta love those comercials.

 

[crashpad]

"That's a lot of energy used speculating about an entity that in all probability will not exist in a few short months. UAL must make a profit (no spin numbers) by 10/31/03 or the DIP lenders can and probably will pull their cash. A profit was not there with record loads this summer..... what are the possibilities things will change in 6 weeks?
If this press from UAL about Starfish is not just a deversion to distract the press from UAL's real problems, survival, then their mgmt is really as imcompentent as their employees think.... they are decorating the walls as the house is falling in around them."

quote

 

[General Lee]

What happens if there is no pension reform, United is unable to find investors due to the large pension problem, and the Gov't isn't willing to give them the $2 billion loan? They can't stay in Chap 11 forever. That could happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee:

 

[Boeingman]

Or nobody gives them exit financing.

 

[General Lee]

That's what I mean. If nobody wants to fund them because of the large expense of pension problems, and the Gov't also deems UAL not worthy of the $2 billion Gov't loan---it could spell Chap 7. I hope it doesn't, but what if they can't get that financing?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mugs]

Assuming that an alternative solution does not come about, an attempt to terminate the pensions in court could result in a labor meltdown and a possible CH7. Where would hundreds of aircraft end up? Probably operating at competitors that threaten your pensions too.

 

[T-Bags]

F-9 Driver,
Just so you understand whats about to happen to you...
1. Starfish is JUST A CODENAME. When we were trying to by U we called each other nifty names like "tarheel" and "yellow jacket". Expect a better name like "rabbit killer".
2. UAL's LCC will have LOWER CASM than FRNT. Yes LOWER. all the while with more leg room, and much better connectivity. I don't anticipate you can keep you costs at our level merely using your current "bypass the de-ice pad" strategy on frosty mornings.
3. UAL plans to match your prices DAILY.
4. I asked Mr. Tilton in a Face to face several months ago if he planed on "killing" FRNT. I pointed out that back in early 1998 UAL had FRNT literally days from Chapt 11 and backed off under the threat of a lawsuit (and apparently political pressure). I also pointed out that while UAL was cutting capacity to match demand FRNT was adding capacity AND still complaining that OTHERS weren't cutting enough. Mr Tilton, without hesitating, insisted that he had every intention of running you out of business, lawsuits be !@#$!@. (BTW, it's hard to sue a lower cost, higher quality provider for preditory pricing when they are doing it at a profit). Incidently, I also asked him if he would consider a program whereby we allowed other airliners pax, on a space avail basis to fly UAL instead. seemed to me it would siphon away your highest priced ticket's to us without having to even inventory the seats. Not saying he listened to me, but somebody else must have came up with the idea to. Feel free to try to siphon ours away with your clubs....

 

[Dizel8]

Yes, "Starfish" may have a lower CASM, but what about mainline?
If it keeps bleeding, the one may not outweigh the other and the end reult, well I hope not.

Tbags,

You remind me a little of Chip Munn on another board. He keeps spouting off how well U is doing and how they are going to see an "interesting corporate transaction" with a airline near and dear to you, namely UAL. Like someone said, we employees are merely pieces in a very big game and your "fiend" today may be your biggest friend tomorrow.