Spirit to hire directly from ERAU?

[jmreii]

Its funny to see when you get some hot shot riddle guy who ends up at mesa!! you guys spend that much $ to get "the best education" out there and then many of you end up at mesa???? I guess they don't teach common sense there!

common sense cannot be taught, either you have it or you don't.

 

[Beetle007]

Beetle007, nice spin...but Mesa's 50 seat CA rate is the lowest of all the airlines you list above.

Not by much. Mostly by a few dollars an hour.

My point was pay mostly sucks regardless of the regional. Domicile locations and upgrade time are more important for someone entering this industry than 1 or 2 dollars an hour.

Regional pilots arguing about who is the highest paid is like prostitutes arguing over who is the sluttiest (with the exception of Skybus - they are the sluttiest airline).

Pay and QOL needs to be raised throughout the regional industry.

 

[Gearthrower]

I think the argument has always been about experiance and how they will be placed at a distinct disadvantage by starting in a position where they were never forced to make decisions with very little support. And never given the opportunity to make mistakes in judgement when the only one affected is themselves. Do not sell short the process by which many had to go through to eventually get to the left seat on a large aircraft. Can they get this from sitting in the right seat of an Airbus working for an airline possibly. But, how will they react when faced with a Dispatcher and MX controler who says do not worry the weathers Forcast is great but your experiance tells you something different and you want more gas or MX tells you its legal but you do not think it is safe. These are positions that we have all been in and made the bad choice to listen and not make a stand for what we thought was right, and safe. Do you think they will get that experiance sitting in the right seat a Spirit; not every Captain is as egalitarian as you would think. Place a young guy with little experiance into the equation I think it will take him twice as long to get that real life experiance he or she would have gotten by starting at the bottom. To say that they are taking these positions because they want to avoid low pay and crappy working conditions is ludacris. This new pilot program that our glorius leaders have devised is a tool to devided the pilot group. It will take many years for these newbie's to shake the sense that their career is completely owed to Spirit. I do not envy them one bit...

 

[Shrek]

Good post Gear.

 

[Gearthrower]

The opening of an LEC is governed by Article III Section 10. You can find it on the ALPA website under Elibrary. The minimum is 10 pilots, but it references the stability of the base, which means until it is there for awhile it will be governed by another LEC. To make it a standalone LEC would require National and the MEC to make that decision.

 

[Beetle007]

I don't understand why everyone acts like flying at Spirit is more difficult than flying at a regional.

In todays industry you flight instructor for 6 -12 months then go fly a jet. These Riddle flight instructors are following the same career path as their peers. They have flight instructed for a while and are now going to fly a jet.

Does anyone honestly think these flight instructors would be more safe in a RJ vs. an Airbus?

 

[Gearthrower]

In todays industry, man you have got to be kinding me. You have either got to be a management tool, or have absolutly no line experiance. Lay your last post on your next captain I would love to hear how that went for you.....


Next your going to be telling me we make to much money.

 

[Beetle007]

I only expressed two opinions, which one do you disagree with? I don't see how either of them are that offensive

-Do you disagree with my opinion that flying an Airbus is not more difficult than flying a Regional Jet?

or

-Do you disagree with my opinion that Regionals have been hiring low time pilots without problems?

 

[Gearthrower]

I disagree with everything you said. Under your rationale why would we every need to flight instruct with my 200 hrs from a 141 school I have all the information I need to fly a 747 right! Wrong. It takes time to understand and gain the skills necessary to handle not only the daily operations but handle an emergency situation. To say these new kids who have only maybe flown a Seneca 50 hr or if we are luck flown an RJ sim are going to be able to handle everyday situations online without assistance from their captain is absolutly crazy. I would help any new pilot learn to fly the airplane to a specific point, but I am not going to help fill the gaps in that person aviation career. They need more experiance period.

 

[huncowboy]

I don't understand why everyone acts like flying at Spirit is more difficult than flying at a regional.

In todays industry you flight instructor for 6 -12 months then go fly a jet. These Riddle flight instructors are following the same career path as their peers. They have flight instructed for a while and are now going to fly a jet.

Does anyone honestly think these flight instructors would be more safe in a RJ vs. an Airbus?

I agree with what you said as far as going from instructing to flying an RJ or the bus. But the riddle thing at Spirit is NOT the usual career path for the industry today. At the moment "usual" is somewhere between jet PIC to jet SIC just to get out of the regionals. About a year ago it was jet PIC only and several thousands of that. About two years ago it was between 2-3k mixed time, may be some turbine here and there and you went to a regional unless you were coming from a program like the riddle guys. I was one of the guys who went to a regional through a special agreement with only CFI time. 1100 hours only. A total of 16 in our class. 6 CFIs, 3 RJ guys and 7 cargo p135 mixed with around 3k+. 5 did not make it. 1 low time CFI, 3 relatively high time guys. The fifth high time guy had some background issues. Regardless, I don't think any of us were ready to fly that RJ except the three RJ guys. We all needed guidance since it is an entry level job. My first leg on IOE was a blank in part because I could not sleep the night before. I think I did pretty well though because I was fully with the plane by the end of the day after 5 red bulls. I still could not land it but I was not behind it. But I was not able to fully handle everything for at least another year or so.

The exact same complaints were made by regional CAs then. But as I have experienced it, the CAs had to teach no matter what. This is just not a job where you can jump into a seat even with a type and think you know it all. It is different from company to company to plane to plane to station to station. There is always something to learn. Having p121 jet PIC time is as close as it gets. Without that it is a question whether you can learn fast or not. Of course regionals did not see many p121 jet PIC applicants for the last few years which we all agree is a good thing.

The argument what the guys are making here in the first place is that at present the industry is not in such a stage that Spirit needs CFIs to be hired. It is a true argument. Hence they are upset and IMHO rightly so. Even I feel a bit like scam because I only have SIC time. There was nothing that justified the hiring of CFIs to an US Airbus operator when there are plenty people with p121 jet PIC or SIC time who would love to come here but don’t even get a call. If regionals would refuse to hire low time they would close doors, but not Spirit.

So the argument is not about harder or easier. I am convinced these guys are going to make it. Yeah they will suck for a few months, and it will take them several years to learn to be fully capable to command that plane. But no one can blame them for taking the job! It is like blaming someone for winning the lottery except that these guys do not even know that they just won. But every one of them seems to have a very good and humble attitude and they seem to be bright. All I can say I wish I would be one of them. Young, happy, no worries just watching the dream happening. Instead of fighting for my last paycheck with my former, ghetto employer.

 

[Bighorn]

I disagree with everything you said. Under your rationale why would we every need to flight instruct with my 200 hrs from a 141 school I have all the information I need to fly a 747 right! Wrong. It takes time to understand and gain the skills necessary to handle not only the daily operations but handle an emergency situation. To say these new kids who have only maybe flown a Seneca 50 hr or if we are luck flown an RJ sim are going to be able to handle everyday situations online without assistance from their captain is absolutly crazy. I would help any new pilot learn to fly the airplane to a specific point, but I am not going to help fill the gaps in that person aviation career. They need more experiance period.

Amen
ONCE AGAIN GT for prez. You could teach Menzies employees to fly a bus but, what happens in an emergency?

 

[Beetle007]

It takes time to understand and gain the skills necessary to handle not only the daily operations but handle an emergency situation.

If you think that handling an emergency in an Airbus is more difficult than in an RJ, then I will have to respect your opinion.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I disagree with everything you said. Under your rationale why would we every need to flight instruct with my 200 hrs from a 141 school I have all the information I need to fly a 747 right! Wrong. It takes time to understand and gain the skills necessary to handle not only the daily operations but handle an emergency situation. To say these new kids who have only maybe flown a Seneca 50 hr or if we are luck flown an RJ sim are going to be able to handle everyday situations online without assistance from their captain is absolutly crazy. I would help any new pilot learn to fly the airplane to a specific point, but I am not going to help fill the gaps in that person aviation career. They need more experiance period.

Just playing devil's advocate, but how do you explain for the many other international carriers who do ab initio programs where they're putting pilots with less hours into the same equipment types? Can you vouch for their safety records? I can't, but I haven't seen them on Fox news. I know that two of the kids in that class are SIC typed in a 737, according to another new hire from the class, he's a former ERJ captain from STL.

If they're as much of a trainwreck as you say, than I'm sure that they won't make it through IOE. It would be a greak signal for US carriers to continue to use traditional hiring practices and seeking out applicants with experience. However, what if they can perform to standard?

 

[Gearthrower]

The only one that I have experiance is with JAL. They have a 0 time to online program, but they also have in the past and I believe they still do hire high time expats to fly for them. As for their safety records well, you would have to do some research to really run a comparison. I think it would be safe to say that most third world nation do this and have had horrible safety records over the past few years.

The real issue is judgement and experiance and all those only come with time. In addition, while these new guys and gals are learning the captain's ticket is on the line; not the new guy or gal. Also, the latest is these new hire will be domestic only. We as a company can not afford to operate as a training airline. If your online you do the job the same as any other pilot.

 

[gatorbird]

I only expressed two opinions, which one do you disagree with? I don't see how either of them are that offensive

-Do you disagree with my opinion that flying an Airbus is not more difficult than flying a Regional Jet?

or

-Do you disagree with my opinion that Regionals have been hiring low time pilots without problems?

Okay Beetle, I'll bite.

First, let's all get away from this notion that the actual task of "flying" any aircraft of the modern transport category is hard. It's not. I don't care if you're in an Airbus, a CRJ, a Boeing or whatever...any dumb-dumb can "put 'er in the v-bars". I don't think any of us can argue that we're still in a time when the physical task of "flying" is difficult.

But that's not all it's about, is it?

No, it's not. First of all, what is the first thing most wise Captains do when there is a complex problem to work out? They LET THE FO FLY! So, that can't be the tough part, or the Captain wouldn't be passing it off to the lesser officer, right? The TOUGH part comes now: WX has unexpectedly gone below mins at destination, coming back East on a redeye. No alternate fuel, and minimum hold/extra fuel. That once-quiet ATC freq is becoming lively; everybody wants a turn or two in holding to figure out a plan of action. Dispatch wants you to come on in and give an approach a try, then go to XYZ (150 NM away) if you don't get in...but they swear it's been going up and down! You're thinking: I don't think I've got the fuel...DING! What was that? Some silly, insignificant "Bus-ism" has generated an ECAM...oh damn...CAT 1 only now... meanwhile, you're at bingo fuel...wait...bingo for where? ATC wanted you to descend to what? Okay, 11-blue...but our burn'll...We don't even HAVE an alternate...ah $hit, guess we'll be dipping into reserves this morning...

Gearthrower makes some darned good points. In sum, you can't teach judgement.

As for your secont point: one of the most recent runway incursions (in ATL) involved a very low-time FO. See the regional posts under "close call in ATL today" for the details. Was this the only factor involved? Of course not. But the FO READ BACK THE CLEARANCE then watched as the CA crossed the active runway. One sure to be problem with the super-green: they won't speak their mind, especially when they should.

Can we teach them to be Airbus-bots? Sure we can. I'm worried about what happens in three years...

gator