Spirit starts driving the final nails...

[boomlrd]

600rvr a job action like a sick out, slow down, et al is unfortunately illegal...ask American Pilots Association about that one. But a green pen day or safety day would be allowable.

And again I have to ask where you are getting your information about our MEC, LEC or scheduling committee allowed them to do this. I can tell you that the scheduling committee did not agree to this. If you read your CBA in the scheduling part under regular lines, there is one part that will allow them to do this...I'm sure that the intent of that language was not to allow this.

Is this an illegal job action? Violating our contract and reducing days off, building lines with over 85 hours? We are not American Airlines, we are much smaller, this is a different beast. I say fight fire with fire.

 

[boomlrd]

BTW, I really hope our union has a very blunt and powerful response to this action by management, they are furloughing 125 pilots so they can work the rest of you more. This should start an all out war with management! What is taking so long for a response?

 

[Mike man]

Is this an illegal job action? Violating our contract and reducing days off, building lines with over 85 hours?

There are no lines BLOCKED for more than 85.00 hours.

What management, and I'm sure it was thought up by those $hitbags attorneys in Atlanta Ford & Harrison because nobody in Miramar is smart enough to think of this, has done is changed Status Quo which is a bad thing which is illegal. So if we survive the cost to violate the contract for several months, is much less in their savings now...for example if they save $50,000 per month for 6 months they save $300,000 but when the arbitrator rules in our favor he/she will award everyone 2 hours of pay if you do the math using $150/hr for all 546 it is a little over $160,000 they will have to payout saving themselves $140,000 in the process.
They are screwing us...and not the good kind.

BOHICA...maybe some bag tags are in order.

See below for some Status Quo info...


Under the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and the case law applying it, the term “Status Quo” often refers to a carrier’s obligation to refrain from changing rates of pay, rules or working conditions, except through negotiation and agreement with the union under the procedures of the RLA. See Detroit and Toledo Shoreline R.R. v. UTU, 396 U.S. 142 (1969). It also refers to a union’s obligation to refrain from striking or engaging in any activities that would have the effect of a strike, such as a work slowdown.

 

[Beetle007]

This should start an all out war with management!

That would quickly get us all on the street. The board of directors has an itchy trigger finger on shutting this place down.

Right now people have a choice of tolerating the work rule changes (which are loopholes in the contract), or leaving for greener pastures.

If we want to blame anyone, we should blame the people who allowed these loopholes in our contract. Language like "to the maximum extent possible" and "Exceptions to the multiple day-off blocks may occur with prior consultation of the scheduling committee." It should say "approval of" rather than "consultation of"....big loopholes.

 

[600rvr]

While there is some truth to the loophole statement beetle, your thought process chills me. I would not like to be unemployed. I would like to have a job at one and only one airline. But who cares about that if you are forced to "tolerate" changes to work rules at the whim of the seemingly uncaring management? Let them shut it down.

 

[Beetle007]

But who cares about that if you are forced to "tolerate" changes to work rules at the whim of the seemingly uncaring management?

We aren't forced to tolerate work rules. We can leave whenever we want (and currently have the option of coming back). In China they are forced to tolerate work rules and they have to sign a lifetime commitment to an airline (or face paying penalties in the 100K+ range)

This loophole is big enough that I can't blame management for taking it to arbitration. Management (not necessarily the board of directors) is trying to save this airline. They need their paychecks almost as much as we need ours. I would rather them try to find loopholes rather than go into bankruptcy and impose a new contract on us. I saw that happen at my previous job and it is much uglier than temporarily losing 4 days off. I personally think Spirit would shut us down rather than deal with the headache of bankruptcy. But, I think we will see airlines like Midwest go into bankruptcy and try to impose a contract on their pilots with 40%+ pay cuts.

I can live with a few loopholes that will go to arbitration. It is a good middle ground while we try to weather this storm and hopefully return back to “normal” in the semi-near future.

 

[labbats]

While I hope the best for everyone at Spirit, I think it's important to ask yourselves what everyone has gained back from the post 9/11 givebacks in our industry.

At least go into this with your eyes open. Any givebacks to your contract will be permanent.

 

[castle bravo]

"The board of directors has an itchy trigger finger on shutting this place down."


OK, but what about the Indigo and Oaktree investments? How do they get their money out under this scenario? Or, are they looting the coffers right now in anticipation of a potential lights out? How much money does Franke have of his own invested?

 

[Beetle007]

Unfortunately, our investors can take their money and run. Our investors don't have any shareholders to deal with during the liquidation.

 

[kwick]

You guys sound like the same guys that voted for us to accept a substandard contract because they believed JS when he said he would shut the place down if we didn't sign.

Crazy speculation about AA's downfall, or USAirs, or United's , or even Spirit's is just negative crap, and serves no usefull purpose and only starts rumours, not based on any facts, that can actually lead to decreased sales and can be harmful.

Why not keep your discontent on private forums and not contribute to the problem.

 

[troll565]

Unfortunately, our investors can take their money and run. Our investors don't have any shareholders to deal with during the liquidation.

Super rich people give their money to Indigo who in turn invest it in other companies. Don't you think the super rich people would be super pissed if their money disappeared in a liquidation or bankruptcy? Wouldn't that be a black mark on them for the future. If you're super rich, you may not give them any more money if they have a habit of poorly investing.

Wouldn't they rather stick it out or try and sell us to Jet Blue?

Barger was seen in Miramar Friday.

 

[castle bravo]

"Super rich people give their money to Indigo who in turn invest it in other companies. Don't you think the super rich people would be super pissed if their money disappeared in a liquidation or bankruptcy"?


Well this is the whole point. How can NK reasonably be expected to liquidate with a substantial private equity investment currently in place? Beetle seems to think Indigo/Oaktree can cut and run at any time, but one would think that there has to be another party at hand willing to assume their stake in the company unless Indigo/Oaktree is willing to accept a complete write down. Do you believe they are? Hence my inquiry about how much of Franke's own money is in-if any.

 

[castle bravo]

Barger was seen in Miramar Friday.

And where is B6 going to go for the $$$- back to Lufthansa for more ??? They currently have an entire market capitalization of $700M and their shares are trading at around $3.

 

[jmreii]

if you are a super rich investor, you have to be concern with the tax man. what better way to show a loss by investing in a struggling airline or any other enterprise. if it was me, I would want to pay little taxes as possible.

 

[Beetle007]

Spirit Airlines had $79,090,000 of cash and short term investments at the end of last quarter. If Spirit shuts down, the investors get to divide this money among themselves and any money raised from selling our assets (minus any outstanding debt owed to other companies). Keep in mind that Skybus had $79,546,000 during the third quarter of 2007.

Our board of directors will ask themselves one question. Will they make more money via liquidation or via continued operation? It is management’s job to convince them of the latter. This is the reason we are seeing management making large changes.

 

[Mike man]

Spirit Airlines had $79,090,000 of cash and short term investments at the end of last quarter.

Source?

 

[Dizel8]

And where is B6 going to go for the $$$- back to Lufthansa for more ???

Money in the bank as well and never forget OPM, but yes, I do believe it is a farfetched scenario. Sadly though, all of us would be the last to know.

 

[Beetle007]

Source?

Bureau of Transportation Statistics (www.bts.gov).

 

[elag777]

And where is B6 going to go for the $$$- back to Lufthansa for more ??? They currently have an entire market capitalization of $700M and their shares are trading at around $3.

• Market caps
• B6 704m
• UAL 456m
• LCC 200m
• AAI 156m

still not too bad for a $3 stock though? B6 is saving cash and not wanting to burn it so the above is doubtful...

 

[castle bravo]

"If Spirit shuts down, the investors get to divide this money among themselves and any money raised from selling our assets (minus any outstanding debt owed to other companies)."

OK, but can anyone quantify exactly how much Indigo/Oaktree has already invested into the operation? What was Jacob paid for his share? How much of a realized loss would the $79M be? What are NK's current liabilities as well?
As far as assets- what assets? Headquarters Miramar is reportedly leased, the A/C are largely leased from GECAS and ILFC (ever notice owned by Wells Fargo on some of the registration certificates- look next time you fly!) One would be surprised if NK actually owned a pencil sharpener and a couple of paper clips as assets. Spare parts inventory? What assets?