Spins...

[minitour]

Anyone ever done any spins with full flaps?

Here was the scenario:

Slow flight at 6,500, instructor pulls a "hey watch this" and tips the plane over to 50* of bank (or so) plane stalls...I was of course not expecting this and we got all sorts of un-coordinated...I felt something comin....not sure if it was a spin or my vomit, but I managed to recover from the slow flight situation and get us back to cruise IAS...brought the flaps up, etc...

So my question is...in a 152, can you/should you do spins with full flaps? How does that F*ck with the aerodynamics of a spin?

-mini

PS
Yay for accellerated stalls...

 

[User546]

When I was going thru my CFI training in a newer 172, I was repeatedly told that doing a spin with full flaps greatly decreased your chances of recovery from a spin.

Its too late at night for me to sit here and ponder the aerodynamic validity of this or not, but I'm sure someone else will confirm or deny the above statement.

One thing for sure, whether or not its safe to do or not, upon recovery from the spin I'd knocked the fire out of that instructor and ask him if he wants for me to show him the door.

 

[minitour]

When I was going thru my CFI training in a newer 172, I was repeatedly told that doing a spin with full flaps greatly decreased your chances of recovery from a spin.

Its too late at night for me to sit here and ponder the aerodynamic validity of this or not, but I'm sure someone else will confirm or deny the above statement.

One thing for sure, whether or not its safe to do or not, upon recovery from the spin I'd knocked the fire out of that instructor and ask him if he wants for me to show him the door.

I kind of thought that. With the increased AOA with the flaps down, I would imagine you could get pretty screwed pretty quickly.

As far as the instructor...he's been hot-doggin it lately. "When you do a steep spiral, turn into a 45* bank turn like this *snap*"

Oh well...only thing that pissed me off was I had it nailed! 35 indicated (had no idea it wouldn't stall at that speed...wow), stall horn blaring away, right rudder almost all the way in, plastered to the back of the seat just haaaaaaangin on the prop....bass turd...oh well...

Thanks for the info and if anyone has anything to add on the aerodynamics, do tell! I know someone on here has to have info...

-mini

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Welp, I've never heard of it before but I have been wrong once or twice before......at any rate, I'm going with:

(C) an extremely bad idea

Let's see here.....
1. power to idle
2. opposite rudder to stop the rotation
3. forward pressure to break the stall
4. recover with light back pressure to avoid an accelerated stall
I'm guessing that, somewhere between number three and four, the little white needle is going to swing past the little white arc......

 

[User546]

As far as the instructor...he's been hot-doggin it lately.

I'd possibly consider finding another/better flight instructor. Sounds like this guy is just an incident waiting to happen. May be "innocent" now, but he'll keep pushing that envelope just a little more each time, until one day he says those famous last words of pilots: "hey, watch this..."

 

[Mr. Cole]

Mini,

I'll have to go back and look at a few references, but just about every source I've read mentions getting the flaps up, usually in the action of ailerons to neutral. May memory may be spotty, but the reasons I think flaps are bad are:

1) They tend to be flatten the spin.

2) The disrupted flow coming off the flaps may negatively impact the rudder effectiveness.

3) Risk of damaging the flaps during the pullout.

Dave

 

[rumpletumbler]

I'm bothered a bit because the a/c I fly (CH2T) isn't approved for "intentional" spins. I'd like to spin it because I teach in it so I can see what its like before a student does it to me. However, I'm breaking the regs if I do and that isn't an option. Sucks...

 

[rumpletumbler]

As an answer to the op (sorry I strayed).... Check the AFM for the answer. I left flying for 20 years because an (expletive deleted) CFI wanted to spin the terrorhawk with full flaps to sign me off for my spin endorsement. It specifically stated in the flight manual to NEVER do that. I wouldn't and was labeled as a source of amusement at the flight school. This guy was always hot dogging and taught nothing..he was bored I guess. Anyway he is still alive...flying a Lear 60 I think. He was a good pilot but a horrible teacher. I didn't trust him and began to think everyone in aviation was like him. Thank God I wised up and got back into avaition. There will always be these folks out there. Stay FAR away from them. They are time builders and don't give a rats behind about teaching. They will hurt and distort your view of aviation if you hang with them long enough. Get away......

 

[mayday1]

2) The disrupted flow coming off the flaps may negatively impact the rudder effectiveness.

this is what I understood the issue to be.

 

[avbug]

Anyway he is still alive...flying a Lear 60 I think. He was a good pilot but...

Apparently not.

Else he wouldn't have asked you what you knew not to do, would he?

 

[rumpletumbler]

Apparently not.

Else he wouldn't have asked you what you knew not to do, would he?

Yeah....good point. I guess I meant in the eyes of the community surrounding him....he was the good guy...I was the bad...etc.

 

[PropsForward]

The trick of intentional spins is to remain within Va during the maneuver. In the C172 aircraft this is very easy to. When the flaps are extended, you now need to recover before exceeding the flap speed.

Not real strong in the fundamentals for aerodynamics and flaps, but I believe that flaps actually reduce aileron effectiveness not rudder effectiveness. While still not an issue in the small Cessna, it is the foundation for the popular teaching of not using full flaps in a stiff crosswind. (FWIW I am a full flap landing on crosswind kind of guy, if I can't keep control of the airplane with full flaps, then it is time to go to another airport).

Lastly, I have a slight problem with a flight instructor saying "Watch This" and then doing something unexpected. This is a strong indication that you may want to find another CFI. I don't have a problem with a CFI having a spontanious teaching moment but he should had provided some instruction and a mock walk through of what he was about to do before jumping into such a maneuver.

 

[minitour]

...This is a strong indication that you may want to find another CFI...

Thanks guys for the information on the maneuver and also for the abundant advice from above. Steps have been taken to resolve that situation.

Thanks agian!

-mini

 

[cezzna]

I don't know about aerodynamics with the flaps down, but I would guess it is prohibited because you will greatly exceed flap speed in recovery. Back in the day when I was instucting, I heard a story something like this. It will happen eventually( by accident) that a stall will turn into a spin with flaps out. The result could be and was in this case that the flaps buckled, or bent under the aerodynamic load. I have no real idea but I would think in a 152 even if the flaps are out, let go of everything and it will recover. Things may bend but... I agree with the other posts, dump this instructor. Anytime you hear "watch this" without any briefing, it's bad news

 

[Doug]

Wow, I am a really new student, and if my instructor ever "hotdogged" like that I would punch him in the face when we got on the ground and find another instructor. It can be scary enough learning to fly with all the new sensations, the last thing you need is some a-hole pulling a stunt like that.

 

[avbug]

The trick of intentional spins is to remain within Va during the maneuver. In the C172 aircraft this is very easy to. When the flaps are extended, you now need to recover before exceeding the flap speed.

A spin is a stalled maneuver. If you're accelerating and gaining airspeed during the spin, you're in a graveyard spiral. Not a spin. You shouldn't be worried about overspeeding the airplane.

If you're talking about spinning out of an accelerated maneuver, you're still in a stalled state. The spin may initiate at a higher airspeed, but should actually slow and not accelerate during the spin, to include the steady state phase.

 

[cezzna]

You are right, a spin is a stalled maneuver and if done correctly. In a well rigged airplane it will stabilize and should not exceed flap speed. It has been along time but I recall after breaking the spin and then pulling out it was not possible to keep it in the white arc. I also remember trying to spin 152's which would always end up in a graveyard spiral( in other words the airspeed did not stabilize but kept increasing), it would not saty in the spin/stall condition for more than one turn. I believe that some of the airplanes have been abused for too long by overconfident, undereducated instructors doing bootleg aerobatics. I have known them and been victimized by them. I knew an instructor who would take primary students with a few hours and loop them in a 152. Too many knucleheads overspeeding and overstressing airplanes for too many years. Then you end up with planes that always drop the same wing in a stall or wont properly spin. Once again dump this dude.

 

[Fly_Chick]

A side question regarding spins. We had a student at the flight school who was told his CFI could not demonstrate spins in the C152 unless there were parachutes aboard. The student has his private, about 500+ hours, not working on his CFI rating, just building some time.

Are parachutes a requirement for a spin demonstration without training towards a CFI certificate?

 

[rumpletumbler]

A side question regarding spins. We had a studentatthe flight school who was told his CFI could not demonstrate spinsinthe C152 unless there were parachutes aboard. The student hashisprivate, about 500+ hours, not working on his CFI rating, justbuildingsome time.

Are parachutes a requirement for a spin demonstration without training towards a CFI certificate?

No, they are not required.

 

[cougar6903]

A side question regarding spins. We had a student at the flight school who was told his CFI could not demonstrate spins in the C152 unless there were parachutes aboard. The student has his private, about 500+ hours, not working on his CFI rating, just building some time.

Are parachutes a requirement for a spin demonstration without training towards a CFI certificate?

FAR 91.303 defines aerobatic flight thusly: an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight. Note that aerobatic flight is not demarcated by a specific pitch attitude or bank angle. (Aerobatic flight is often mistakenly thought to occur only when an aircraft exceeds 30 degrees of pitch or 60 degrees of bank relative to the horizon. This 30/60 rule, which appears under FAR 91.307 (c), merely specifies the conditions under which parachutes must be worn by the occupants of an aircraft.) In the classical sense, the term aerobatics includes spinning, looping, and rolling an aircraft through 360 degrees of yaw, pitch, and roll. The only time parachutes are not required is during spins for a CFI rating.