Spins are fun

[Timebuilder]

The short answer is that they are already low and slow because of their position in the pattern, and they miscalculate the base-to-final turn, and while correcting their position they get into a cross-controlled situation. When the stall comes, instead of being able to simply add power and lower the nose, they enter a spin from the uncoordinated condition, and are too low to the ground to recover.

 

[Lead Sled]

To add just a little to Timebuilder's excellent explaination...

They're low and slow, they misjudge the base to final turn and in order to avoid an overshoot they simply try to use the rudder to force the nose around while keeping the bank angle low. Then when the airplane stalls - bingo. Adios muchachos.

Lead Sled

 

[garf12]

To add just a little to Timebuilder's excellent explaination...

They're low and slow, they misjudge the base to final turn and in order to avoid an overshoot they simply try to use the rudder to force the nose around while keeping the bank angle low. Then when the airplane stalls - bingo. Adios muchachos.

Lead Sled

that sounds like something I often do.

 

[JonJohn82]

Does anyone have information about the pilot and the aircraft that crashed a few weeks ago while practicing aerobatics off the coast of Florida before an airshow? Does anyone know the cause of the crash. It looked like he was in a spin, but what prevented him from getting out of it?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[JB74]

I think this is the crash you are referring to.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040506X00565&key=1

As far as reasons, it is purely speculation until the final report comes out. Someone else on this board mentioned a control surface cable problem.

There was some discussion about it here.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=33374

 

[JonJohn82]

Thanks for the links and the help!

 

[TrafficInSight]

In most training airplanes all you have to do to recover from a spin is let go of the controls and scream*


* - screaming optional.

 

[memooch]

I agree. I wish I would have had at least one lesson of spins during my private training. It would have calmed my fears of spinning the aircraft a bit.

Jon

You can always have your CFI demonstrate! Who says you can't? Just don't go out and practice them alone, of course...

 

[Lead Sled]

If you've never experienced a spin, by all means get a CFI and go for it. Parachutes aren't required if a CFI is on board and you're getting dual. However, make sure that the CFI knows what he's doing - there's a lot of CFIs out there that have only spun once or twice themselves and that was just to meet the training requirement.

 

[JonJohn82]

Once I get my CFI ticket (in less than 2 weeks), I plan on going up a couple more times with our Aerobatics Instructor to do some more spin training. I'll take my future students up for at least one hour to do spin training then.

 

[great cornholio]

Spins are hard, but not impossible to get into while in Cessnas. Over my CFI career students managed to get me into 3 spins. 2 in 172s and 1 in a 152. 2 happend during stall practice the first guy just didnt put any right rudder in and we spun. The second guy was almost checkride ready just had 2 lessons to go we did a stall and a wing dropped he didn't move the yoke but slammed on the wrong rudder and we spun. The last spin was in slow flight we were getting slow so I told my student to lower the nose. He decided to pull full back as fast as he could with out any right rudder and guess what we spun. 1 spin was over the shoreline at flagler peir at night...that one was my favorite...the windscreen was like light...dark...light...dark...ah good fun. Be careful with that new CFI man. As hard as it was for you to get the control inputs to get the 152 to spin for your CFI training students manage to find a way to do it with no problem. And remember even a good student that is almost checkride ready can be dumb for 1/2 a second and next thing you know the ride just got a lot more fun. So stay on your toes so you stay alive. And when you get your MEI stay one your toes twice as much, cause you just gave your students twice as many ways to kill you.

 

[Lead Sled]

"...Over my CFI career students managed to get me into 3 spins. 2 in 172s and 1 in a 152. 2 happend during stall practice the first guy just didnt put any right rudder in and we spun. The second guy was almost checkride ready just had 2 lessons to go we did a stall and a wing dropped he didn't move the yoke but slammed on the wrong rudder and we spun. The last spin was in slow flight we were getting slow so I told my student to lower the nose..."

FWIW, I would bet that you actually weren't in a true spin, but rather its more destructive cousin - the tight descending spiral. In most cases, sloppy flying (like your students were demonstrating) result in the spiral. In "spin resistant" aircraft like the C150/152/172 and PA-28 series, etc. you have to work at geting them to enter a true spin with proper contol inputs, power management, etc.

Remember, a true spin is a stable 1-G maneuver and won't damage the airframe. (That is until it hits the ground.) A tight descending spirals can be very destructive before you hit the ground. The G forces can quickly build up to the point where airframes will come apart.
Lead Sled

 

[great cornholio]

They felt alot like spins at the time. Upside down at the top and no extra G's. Looked and felt just like the ones that I did for spin training. Except for one of the ones in a 172. The plane just went upside down and stayed like that and we were in free fall. It sucked. The student let go of all of the controls as soon as the wing droped. I was waiting on it to go over the top and start to spin, but it just went upside down and stayed that way. Freefell on our back for a long time and ended up doing like a spilt S or something like that either way finally got the nose to drop and got it recovered but it took a little over 2000 ft of altitude to do it. Anyways the point of the story was to tell the other guy to be careful that students do manage to get Cessnas at least semi out of control.

 

[garf12]

So what is a true spin? Just when the plane is rotating around its vertical axis? I seem to remember that there a few different kinds? I really would like to experience one with a trained professional, I just dont really feel that comfortable letting my 22 year old CFI put us into an intentional one.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Garf, many people make spins out to be a huge deal. They aren't IF you have the altitude to recover underneath you. If you don't have the altitude, you turn into paste. Most people get into spins when they are low (base to final turn) and thus they end up as paste. It's like stalls, if you do it when low to the ground, you don't have time to recover (and become paste) but if you are at 2k ft, there is zero danger.

There are 3 types of spins: flat, upside down, and the normal spin (forgot it's name). Flat is dangerous because you don't have any forward airspeed and thus you can't recover. Upside down or normal spins are easily recoverable using proper technique (in a light training plane).

A true spin is when one wing is more stalled than the other. The aircraft makes a turn around the more stalled wing. It is a stable condition of flight (so unless you put in imputs, you will stay in it) but most light training planes will recover after a little while. But there should be more 'official' definitions in the book you are studying from.

 

[pilotman2105]

but if you are at 2k ft, there is zero danger.

You go spinning at 2000 AGL and get back to me afterward...

Personally, I do spins with recovery no lower than 3500 AGL.

I really would like to experience one with a trained professional, I just dont really feel that comfortable letting my 22 year old CFI put us into an intentional one.

Then go and find a more experienced CFI. It's excellent training that will teach you why the rudder is so important in stall situations. I did spins during my private training and feel that really helped me answer "why" to a bunch of questions.

Plus they're a friggin' blast to do.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I was talking about stalls in the 2k ft comment, not spins. My bad for the confusion.

 

[Swede]

I remember tooling around in my little Grumman TR2... the operating manual specifically stated "Spins PROHIBITED!" Apparently, this beast, once into a fully developed spin rather than an entry (maybe 2 turns?) became unrecoverable. Whooo!

I knew of a tiny little guy who spun (intentionally) a Schweizer 2-32 glider. Unfortunately, being very light weight, he created a less stable, tail-heavy configuration, which makes the glider more prone to being unrecoverable. Multiple attempts to exit the spin - finally he pulls it out at something like 600 AGL and barely manages to drag himself and his soiled drawers back to the field. He was a CFIG and knew his stuff, but almost bit it this time.

There ARE aircraft types which have vicious stall/spin characteristics.

 

[Lead Sled]

I knew of a tiny little guy who spun (intentionally) a Schweizer 2-32 glider. Unfortunately, being very light weight, he created a less stable, tail-heavy configuration, which makes the glider more prone to being unrecoverable. Multiple attempts to exit the spin - finally he pulls it out at something like 600 AGL and barely manages to drag himself and his soiled drawers back to the field. He was a CFIG and knew his stuff, but almost bit it this time.

Funny you should mention your friend’s glider experience – a glider was also involved in my one and only unintentional spin experience. 25 years ago, I bought a single-seat Schweizer 1-23G (basically a 1-26 with 17 meter wings). It was my first or second flight and I was still getting the feel for it. The factory POH was high tech – a single sheet of memeographed paper. I remember reading something along the lines of uncoordinated stalls not being recommended. I released and worked some lift to gain some altitude and began to get the feel of it. What a nice flying glider. I did several stalls, but it was pretty easy to get “crosswise” with it – it was pretty short-coupled, the wings were pretty long and the fuselage was comparatively short. I tried one where the yaw string wasn’t quite where it should have been. The next thing I knew, I was hanging from my straps, pointed straight down with the whole world rotating around me. Yep, I was glad I had been there before – with a CFI.



If I were “King of the World” I’d make spin training, glider training, and what the heck, even tail wheel training a requirement for all initial fixed-wing ratings. If you guys haven’t tried your hand at any or all of them you’re really missing out. 20 years ago, when I flew for a major airline, the 727 Chief Pilot told me that he could tell by the way a pilot flew the 727 if he had tail dragger time or not. His inference was that pilots with tail dragger experience did a noticeably better job. In the 20 years since he told me that, I've found no reason to disagree with that statement. Flying gliders helps you develop an "air sense" as well as taking some of the apprehension about losing an engine. Flying tail draggers teaches you what your feet are for among other things. Finally aerobatic flying gives you the knowledge to properly handle severe upsets.



The company, that I used to work for, sent us for periodic aerobatic training to help us in the event that we were to ever have an encounter with extreme upset caused by, for example, a bad wake turbulence encounter. (This was the suspected cause of a couple of fatal corporate accidents a few years ago.) This training is becoming increasingly popular with corporate operators. Also, according to the guy who provided our training, some 121 operators are starting to get on the bandwagon as well. (However, many schools call it "Extreme Unusual Attitude Recovery Training". Don't want no "hotshot" corporate or airline pilots out there. It is what it is however.) The aircraft that many of these schools use are what you'd expect - Decathlons and Pitts. However, courses are also taught in T-34s and the various surplus eastern European jet trainers that are out there.



It is nice to have “automatic” reactions should you ever tangle with the wake turbulence of a “heavy”. At a certain point, a pilots "normal" reaction of pulling pack on the yoke to avoid the ground will be exactly what you don't want to do. At one of my 6-month sim sessions a few years ago, I was given a particular "extreme" upset and it was a simple matter of just continuing the roll then gently pitch up. My instructor was not expecting my response, but it was so smooth and easy that he was really impressed. Now FlightSafety advocates and teaches that recovery under that particular scenario. As I mentioned, some of the smaller 121 operators are also giving their flight crews aeroba... Oops, extreme unusual attitude recovery training. The various RJs, DC-9s and B737s can be just as susceptible to wake turbulence upset as our corporate jets are.



The nice part about "all of the above" is that it's comparatively inexpensive. There are glider schools all around the country and you can usually get you "add-on" rating in a couple of days. Same thing applies to aerobatic training. When it comes to that though, a little goes a long way. They place where I did my training billed the aircraft in 1/10th hour increments - your tummy won't let most pilots go out for hours of aerobatics at a time (at least in the beginning). Fortunately, it really doesn't take a lot of flinging yourself around the sky to gain the knowledge and develop the habits that will keep you from "pulling when you should be pushing".

Lead Sled

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

A private pilot lisence is a lisence to learn. While you are at it, ask for some more unplanned XCs or hood time. I was a poster child for getting lost on XCs back when I was a newly minted private pilot.

Low time private pilots have to learn some on their own, and if that means once and a while they become paste, they knew the risks and still turned on the engine. Do it right or don't do it at all.

PS: how much would a commercial glider rating cost and how much time does it take (flight wise)? I plan on doing it after I get my ASEL/AMEL commercial and CFI/CFII but before doing my MEI or commercial ASES. And does it count as a BFR for a ASEL/AMEL rating?