Spins are fun

[JB74]

My first instructor covered spins a couple days before my pvt checkride. Not really a big deal in a 152. We couldn't get more than about two rotations before it would self recover. He also tried to show me a half-a$$ed loop and barrel roll. I think it was his way of telling me what NOT to do with the airplane (ie get it out of your system now while with an instructor). He flies for ASA now. Great instructor.

 

[RJPilott]

My first instructor covered spins a couple days before my pvt checkride. Not really a big deal in a 152. We couldn't get more than about two rotations before it would self recover. He also tried to show me a half-a$$ed loop and barrel roll. I think it was his way of telling me what NOT to do with the airplane (ie get it out of your system now while with an instructor). He flies for ASA now. Great instructor.

And im sure you both were wearing a chute?

 

[JB74]

No. In retrospect, we should not have been doing what we did (amazing what you learn between pvt checkride and 200hrs). I would put that on my list of "stupid sh!t" I've done. I guess that is what happens when the student and instructor are buddies outside of the FBO.

 

[Lead Sled]

[font=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]If I were king of the world, I would require spin training and student demonstrated entries and recoveries in both directions. (I would also require some glider training - buts that's a topic for another discussion.) I feel that it's a shame that the FAA no longer requires this for all grades of airman certificates.

This hasn't always been so. Years ago, it was a requirement for student pilots to have spin training. Back then, stall/spins were one of the leading causes of aviation fatalities. The FAA (Oops, back then it was the CAA) recognized that, in most cases, if an aircraft is capable of stalling it is also capable of spinning therefore they required spin training. Years later on the enlightened FAA decided that if they just ignored the problem it would go away. Hence the requirement for spin training was removed. The results? Stall/spins continued to be one of the leading causes aviation fatalities. Finally, the FAA decided that perhaps they had over done it and reinstated the requirement for spin training, but for CFI applicants only. The results? Stall/spins still continue to be one of the leading causes of fatalities in general aviation.

The problem with the current FAA approach is that it isn't working. Stall/Spins are still a contributing factor in a large percentage of aviation deaths. You can have a extensive "book" understanding of the factors involved, but the actual experience is so disorienting to one who has never experienced it before as to make verbal explanations virtually meaningless. I personally believe that it would be much better to have the student's first spin experience with a CFI at his side than hanging from the straps at pattern altitude, watching the world starting to spin around him with his wife sitting beside him and wondering what the hell just happened.

The manufactures have done their part - they have tried to design the "spin" right out of most of their designs. That's why it's so hard to get most (but not all) of the typical general aviation aircraft that we fly to spin. The problem is that nearly any airplane will spin if it's provoked enough and those that won't spin are more than willing to enter the infamous "graveyard spiral". (Any guesses why that name?) I feel that if an airplane is capable of spinning, then the student had dang well better be trained and proficient in spin entries and "textbook" recoveries (both directions) - regardless of what the FAA requires. (And not in an airplane that only requires you to relax pressure on the controls to recover. Believe me, there are many popular airplanes out there that require "aggressive" spin recovery techniques.)

It's not the spin training per se, but the knowledge of what's involved that has the potential to save lives. After all the classic stall/spin accident occurs at low altitude while the aircraft is making the base-to-final turn. My personal opinion is that proper training demands more than simply a thorough explanation of the aerodynamics involved. While absolutely necessary, this explanation must also be accompanied by appropriate demonstrations by both the instructor and student. In my case, I set up spin entry demos with the classic "base-to-final" scenario.

I fear that if too much emphasis is placed on how difficult it is to get a ___________ (fill in the blank - Tomahawk, C152, C172, Cherokee, etc.) to spin the student might come away with the mistaken impression that it's not a big deal. Personally, I'd rather let them experience both stall and spiral recoveries because that's what they're going to be doing if it ever happens to them. It's basically a new twist on the old concept of "See and Avoid". After all, I don't care how proficient you are with spin entries, if you allow yourself to get into one at pattern altitude or below, you and your passengers are most likely going to die! Certainly a thorough "academic" understanding of spins is essential, but actual spin demonstrations put the exclamation point at the end of the sentence - if you know what I mean. Teaching the finer points of spin entries and how to force a particular airplane to spin is probably best left to a dedicated aerobatic course. [/font]

Lead Sled

 

[garf12]

what causes the spin turning base to final? What do people do wrong?

 

[Timebuilder]

The short answer is that they are already low and slow because of their position in the pattern, and they miscalculate the base-to-final turn, and while correcting their position they get into a cross-controlled situation. When the stall comes, instead of being able to simply add power and lower the nose, they enter a spin from the uncoordinated condition, and are too low to the ground to recover.

 

[Lead Sled]

To add just a little to Timebuilder's excellent explaination...

They're low and slow, they misjudge the base to final turn and in order to avoid an overshoot they simply try to use the rudder to force the nose around while keeping the bank angle low. Then when the airplane stalls - bingo. Adios muchachos.

Lead Sled

 

[garf12]

To add just a little to Timebuilder's excellent explaination...

They're low and slow, they misjudge the base to final turn and in order to avoid an overshoot they simply try to use the rudder to force the nose around while keeping the bank angle low. Then when the airplane stalls - bingo. Adios muchachos.

Lead Sled

that sounds like something I often do.

 

[JonJohn82]

Does anyone have information about the pilot and the aircraft that crashed a few weeks ago while practicing aerobatics off the coast of Florida before an airshow? Does anyone know the cause of the crash. It looked like he was in a spin, but what prevented him from getting out of it?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[JB74]

I think this is the crash you are referring to.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040506X00565&key=1

As far as reasons, it is purely speculation until the final report comes out. Someone else on this board mentioned a control surface cable problem.

There was some discussion about it here.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=33374

 

[JonJohn82]

Thanks for the links and the help!

 

[TrafficInSight]

In most training airplanes all you have to do to recover from a spin is let go of the controls and scream*


* - screaming optional.

 

[memooch]

I agree. I wish I would have had at least one lesson of spins during my private training. It would have calmed my fears of spinning the aircraft a bit.

Jon

You can always have your CFI demonstrate! Who says you can't? Just don't go out and practice them alone, of course...

 

[Lead Sled]

If you've never experienced a spin, by all means get a CFI and go for it. Parachutes aren't required if a CFI is on board and you're getting dual. However, make sure that the CFI knows what he's doing - there's a lot of CFIs out there that have only spun once or twice themselves and that was just to meet the training requirement.

 

[JonJohn82]

Once I get my CFI ticket (in less than 2 weeks), I plan on going up a couple more times with our Aerobatics Instructor to do some more spin training. I'll take my future students up for at least one hour to do spin training then.