Spin training?

[dbchandler1]

if you think that your student could benefit from some spin training, can you give it to them without wearing a parachute?

 

[desnapper]

What level of pilot are they? While spin training can be good, do you really want a student or private pilot going out and doing them by themselves? Besides that you may not be legal. Ac 61-67c hits on it as well as 91.307(c). If it is not for a certification or rating as excemted in 91.307(d), you need a chute.

AC 61-67C - STALL AND SPIN AWARENESS TRAINING

301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins,- and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.

§ 91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds -
(1) A bank of 60° relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30° relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to -
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with § 61.67 of this chapter.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I took my students up to do spin awareness (no chute unless we were flying a fully aerobatic plane... if that was the case we almost certainly were going to be exceeding that whole 30 degree/60 degree thing). So much hype comes about spins that many students are afraid of stalls and spins. Once my students became semi proficient at power on stalls, I would usually offer them the opportunity to go up and do some spin training/advanced stalls, as long as they understood it was a demo flight, and they were not to try them on their own.

We would go up and start with intermediate stalls (secondary stalls, "falling leaf technique"), then do stalls into spin entries (usually to a wing fall off) then recover, followed by full spins and recoveries. If they got to a point where they were comfortable, we would do cross control stalls, then cross controlled stalls into spins.

Overall, I found it inspired confidence in their abilites and my students no longer feared stalls/spins. It often helped them stay more coordinated/rudder aware, which was definately a positive result.

If you do plan on doing this, make sure that you have a very thorough brief before hand though on all of the various maneuvers, and if a student starts to get a bit "freaked", obviously stop and head back. (Oh and you might want to warn them about doors popping open if you're flying a Cessna...)

 

[dbchandler1]

hey thanks, great information guys, any chief flight instructors out there willing to voice their schools policy

 

[dbchandler1]

by the way, sweet avatar! desnapper

 

[Flyerjosh]

Unless you're a qualified CFI and actually training a student for their CFI, then nope...no intentional spinning w/o a chute...

This statement is incorrect... you can train spins without a chute (As previously stated):

Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating.

Here's a link to the Advisory Circular where an expanded interpretation of 91.307 can be found:

AC 61.67C (see page 18)

 

[JAFI]

Interesting article from Transport Canada on a spin accident study. I read the entire study a couple years ago. I will try and find it.

JAFI

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/SystemSafety/Newsletters/tp185/3-01/279.htm

 

[gear goes down]

To add to this (im now a CFI), when I was doing my private pilot training a few years back under part 141, we did spins on about the 6 lesson. So, it was done under part 141 and stated in the lesson that we must do spins, so it was APPROVED by the FAA. We did not use any chutes either.

 

[aperson]

Nope, you can only do spins without a parachute when spins are required for the rating, aka only for your CFI-A.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I just added this in an edit. Want to clear the air once and for all. Again.. the FAA expanded interpretation of the rule:

Here's a link to the Advisory Circular where an expanded interpretation of 91.307 can be found:

AC 61.67C (see page 18)

"Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating."

 

[aucfi]

I wonder how difficult it would be to actually get out of a 172 or other trainier of the like wearing a parachute while spinning.

 

[gear goes down]

I always wondered about that to. The most turns in a spin I have ever done was about 8 in a c152. The forces get stronger and stronger the longer your in the spin. Man was that fun though!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kream926]

later in training i show students the importance of staying co-ordinated during slow flight and stalls....

i did some spins in an extra 300 which opened my eyes to spins....but i still dont like doin them

 

[Stifler's Mom]

i did some spins in an extra 300 which opened my eyes to spins....but i still dont like doin them

Me neither, I had to really psych myself out to do them.

 

[desnapper]

The Staple's "Easy" button? Geez, you're easily impressed...

That was easy!

I discussed the issue with two different local chapters of civil servants and both said no! The only rating or certificate that 91.307 would exempt would be a two year or more cfi, instructing an initial cfi candidate. Also cfii or mei as the initial does not have to comply with spin training. Most 141 or 61 schools have spin awareness training in the curriculum, but not full on spins.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Spin training without a parachute a can be done with a student pilot. Technically it would be prep for the CFI and that satisfies the AC direction given as well as the FAR. Personally I believe that you are providing Stall Spin Awareness training too and that IS required for the Private Pilot Certificate.

Regarding the level of spin training for students, I think it is best to only do one turn. That's all. Forcing the airplane into more turns can be dangerous if the CFI doesn't recognize the development of a spiral. The results can be fatal in that case. One turn is totally safe no matter what and that accomplishes the objective of allowing the student to gain confidence for an unusual attitude recovery following an unexpected spin entry following a stall upset.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Again... any CFI can conduct spin training for ANY STUDENT at ANY LEVEL during training of ANY TYPE (be it towards a CFI rating or not) without a parachute.

This comes from the expanded guidance and regs interpretation that comes DIRECTLY FROM THE FAA in Advisory Circular 61.67. (You posted it yourself desnapper! Stick with your guns. Official printed material always trumps the "knowledge" of an "expert" and will always hold up in court). This text comes directly off the FAA website.

Here is the pertainant language that grants that exception:

"Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating."

What this (green text) is stating is that because CFI's are formally trained in spins while obtaining their certificate, any spin training conducted by a certified CFI is exempt from 91.307.

The second part of the paragraph (blue text) clarifies that any spin training (whether towards the CFI rating or not- even if its not towards a specific certificate/rating), is exempted from 91.307.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

91.307 clearly says that parachutes are required for any maneuver that exceed 30 degrees of pitch or 60 degrees of bank. Paragraph (b) of that section says that there are exceptions (meaning no parachutes) for "Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a flight instructor." That is the regulation on this subject.

Clearly then you can not just go out an do spins without a parachute with just anyone anytime. Yes you can do this with your Private or Commercial student because you are providing "Stall/Spin Awareness" training that is required for both of those certificates. Plus if anyone questions this it could be said that you were providing training for the CFI.

It should be noted that the regulations are law and the final authority. In other words they are regulatory. Advisory Circulars are, "Non-Regulatory material of interest" by definition. When in doubt always go back to the actual regulation for the final answer.

 

[Flyerjosh]

It comes down to interpretation of the regs. Since the regulation in 91.307 isn't clear cut, you can refer back to the AC for further guidance on the reg.

Here is the applicable regulation:

"91.307 (d): Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to...

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating;
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by..."

So does that mean that spins are totally exempted? Or only when they are required by the regs? It depends where you put the emphasis. Perhaps we should write the FAA and ask them to change that to:

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating;
(2) Spin training flights conducted by a CFI or ATP;
(3) Other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating..."

Do you see what I'm getting at? There is a lot of grey in this reg (Like most of the FARs). The fact is that the FAA has provided additional guidance and interpretation in the form of an advisory circular. I have spoken with inspectors at two different FSDOs about this matter (Fargo and Richmond). Both places agree that spin training can be conducted (in an appropriate aircraft) without parachutes, regardless of the type of training being conducted.

If you really feel like you are operating way out on the "ragged edge" just put in the student's logbook- "Intro to CFI techniques: Spins." There's nothing in the regs that states that a student cannot start learning/training how to be a CFI on lesson one of their private pilot training. They just aren't eligible for a checkride until they meet additional criteria.

Of course, we're all set in our own ways. I'm not going to stop spin training with those students that will benefit from it just because I don't have a chute or because they aren't CFI candidates. If the FSDO calls me on it, then we can sit down and chat about the grey area. I feel pretty confident in my interpretation. Besides, why would the FAA want to hinder training that ultimately increases pilot safety and awareness?