Spin training?

[dbchandler1]

if you think that your student could benefit from some spin training, can you give it to them without wearing a parachute?

 

[desnapper]

What level of pilot are they? While spin training can be good, do you really want a student or private pilot going out and doing them by themselves? Besides that you may not be legal. Ac 61-67c hits on it as well as 91.307(c). If it is not for a certification or rating as excemted in 91.307(d), you need a chute.

AC 61-67C - STALL AND SPIN AWARENESS TRAINING

301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins,- and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.

§ 91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds -
(1) A bank of 60° relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30° relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to -
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with § 61.67 of this chapter.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I took my students up to do spin awareness (no chute unless we were flying a fully aerobatic plane... if that was the case we almost certainly were going to be exceeding that whole 30 degree/60 degree thing). So much hype comes about spins that many students are afraid of stalls and spins. Once my students became semi proficient at power on stalls, I would usually offer them the opportunity to go up and do some spin training/advanced stalls, as long as they understood it was a demo flight, and they were not to try them on their own.

We would go up and start with intermediate stalls (secondary stalls, "falling leaf technique"), then do stalls into spin entries (usually to a wing fall off) then recover, followed by full spins and recoveries. If they got to a point where they were comfortable, we would do cross control stalls, then cross controlled stalls into spins.

Overall, I found it inspired confidence in their abilites and my students no longer feared stalls/spins. It often helped them stay more coordinated/rudder aware, which was definately a positive result.

If you do plan on doing this, make sure that you have a very thorough brief before hand though on all of the various maneuvers, and if a student starts to get a bit "freaked", obviously stop and head back. (Oh and you might want to warn them about doors popping open if you're flying a Cessna...)

 

[dbchandler1]

hey thanks, great information guys, any chief flight instructors out there willing to voice their schools policy

 

[dbchandler1]

by the way, sweet avatar! desnapper

 

[Flyerjosh]

Unless you're a qualified CFI and actually training a student for their CFI, then nope...no intentional spinning w/o a chute...

This statement is incorrect... you can train spins without a chute (As previously stated):

Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating.

Here's a link to the Advisory Circular where an expanded interpretation of 91.307 can be found:

AC 61.67C (see page 18)

 

[JAFI]

Interesting article from Transport Canada on a spin accident study. I read the entire study a couple years ago. I will try and find it.

JAFI

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/SystemSafety/Newsletters/tp185/3-01/279.htm

 

[gear goes down]

To add to this (im now a CFI), when I was doing my private pilot training a few years back under part 141, we did spins on about the 6 lesson. So, it was done under part 141 and stated in the lesson that we must do spins, so it was APPROVED by the FAA. We did not use any chutes either.

 

[aperson]

Nope, you can only do spins without a parachute when spins are required for the rating, aka only for your CFI-A.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I just added this in an edit. Want to clear the air once and for all. Again.. the FAA expanded interpretation of the rule:

Here's a link to the Advisory Circular where an expanded interpretation of 91.307 can be found:

AC 61.67C (see page 18)

"Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating."