speed limit

[trip]

Is there a speed limit in class b airspace? (some class b is above 10,000msl.)

 

[justApilot]

class B = 250 kts

 

[Flight Junkie]

250 is correct except for one class B...IAH.

 

[siedkick]

I've heard arguments that the speed limit goes away above 10,000' even when the Class B doesn't e.g. DFW, ATL, etc. I've been a little reluctant to test it though.

 

[chperplt]

In reality, how is ATC going to know what IAS you're flying at? They see groundspeed on their screen, not IAS.

 

[profile]

Not sure where people got the idea that the 250 below 10,000 rule applies to class B above 10,000. It does not. Look in 91.117.

The only thing that is different in Class B is that you don't have any 200 kt rule in the "surface area" surrounding a controlled field for the primary airport, so you can go 250 there.

Above 10000 in Class B you can accelerate to normal climb speed.

I do have to say that the notion that you can ignore a regulation because ATC (or whomever) won't notice the violation is disturbing. Flying faster than 250 above 10000' is always legal absent another speed assignment from ATC, but you don't violate a reg just because somebody might or might not notice.

 

[banned username 2]

In reality, how is ATC going to know what IAS you're flying at? They see groundspeed on their screen, not IAS.

Well if other aircraft at your altitude (and going same direction) are all doing 280 kt GS and you are doing 330 kt GS... guess what? You are doing 300 KIAS and (especially in ATL) you are getting a "Speeding Ticket"... It isn't hard for them to figure out....

Now if we ALL conspire, then they are out of luck....!

 

[chperplt]

Well if other aircraft at your altitude (and going same direction) are all doing 280 kt GS and you are doing 330 kt GS... guess what? You are doing 300 KIAS and (especially in ATL) you are getting a "Speeding Ticket"... It isn't hard for them to figure out....

I understand that...

I was flying through NY and on with BOS center.. Someone asked the controller if a "maintain max forward speed" was a clearance to do more than 250 below 10K, and the controller said officially 'NO", but there isn't any way he's going to know what you're really doing, or even care enough to say anything. Obviously not all controllers think alike..

 

[banned username 2]

I understand that...

I was flying through NY and on with BOS center.. Someone asked the controller if a "maintain max forward speed" was a clearance to do more than 250 below 10K, and the controller said officially 'NO", but there isn't any way he's going to know what you're really doing, or even care enough to say anything. Obviously not all controllers think alike..

I agree... they will NEVER tell you that you are cleared to go over 250 KIAS below 10,000ft (they can't, that speed limit is a reg and they can't waive that) BUT THEY are the ones who monitor that reg, if they choose to look the other way, that is their choice...

Atlanta has been to only TRACON that has been real anal about the speed limit, Chicago has queried a couple pilots on occasion... but haven't been near as anal, usually it is a "Nxxxx say speed" and the reply is "250 kts" as you are yanking the thrust levers back to idle.

 

[AWACoff]

The AIM clearly states speed limits for different types of airspace. DISCLAIMER: The AIM is not regulatory.

Unless there is an air traffic controller on the board who can point out the speed restrictions in their manuals, we will all have to go on what the AIM says as the FARs have no mention of speed limits (outside of 91.117 which says nothing about Class B having a speed limit). That being said, Class B clearly has NO speed limit. Most Class B coincides with the 250kts below 10k feet rule. That is not a limit for Class B though. Class C and Class D clearly have maximum speeds listed in the AIM. Good question "Trip", always have material to prove your statement.

EDIT: My post appears to have been misunderstood. Simply, there is no speed limit for Class B airspace. Class B airspace that happens to be below 10k feet has a speed limit due to the speed limit below 10k feet (250kias), not because it is Class B.

 

[BigFlyr]

the FARs have no mention of speed limits (outside of 91.117 which says nothing about Class B having a speed limit).

AWACoff...

Ref: FAR 91.117 paragraph (b)... "does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section."

Therefore, 91.117 (a) is applicable, in a roundabout way, for operations within Class B airspace but only below 10000 ft.

 

[CL60]

300kts below 10,000

In reality, how is ATC going to know what IAS you're flying at? They see groundspeed on their screen, not IAS.

They will know by averaging your speed against the general flow of traffic. So will your FDR, especially after you run into someone. Speed regs exist for several good reasons one of which is collision avoidance among various categories of aircraft down low.

Good luck!

 

[chperplt]

In reality, how is ATC going to know what IAS you're flying at? They see groundspeed on their screen, not IAS.

Thanks... My comment was a little bit of a joke. I know they can figure out quite easily how fast your flying.

 

[willbav8r]

SFO area at the weekend - ATC were making a point of telling departing heavies (jets) from SFO and OAK to keep speed below 250.

First time I had heard that being specified on frequency.

And all the time I was struggling to 115 in a Warrior

 

[TriStar_drvr]

SFO area at the weekend - ATC were making a point of telling departing heavies (jets) from SFO and OAK to keep speed below 250.

That's because ATC will sometimes allow heavies to accelerate to greater than 250 knots below 10,000. LAX routinely allows westbound departures (heading across the Pacific) to exceed 250 in the climb. They tend to climb better at higher airspeeds.

 

[ifly4food]

Atlanta has been to only TRACON that has been real anal about the speed limit, Chicago has queried a couple pilots on occasion... but haven't been near as anal, usually it is a "Nxxxx say speed" and the reply is "250 kts" as you are yanking the thrust levers back to idle.

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. I've flown for 121 airlines based in ORD and ATL and I can tell you that neither are very anal about speed.
ATL REGULARLY ignores the "speed traps" that exist on the arrivals into ATL. Seldomly do you get a crossing speed restriction, and often you get told to keep the speed up. A lot of pilots in ATL actually screw everything up by slowing too soon. (hence my "signature quote", a line from ORD approach to a Delta flight.

Chicago ATC: anything goes. When Chi Approach tells you "max forward speed to the marker, you're number one for the approach", they don't mean 250KT. Legal, no, but when it's the cop telling you to speed up, you're not going to get a ticket. Chicago couldn't care less how fast you go, as long as you get out of their airspace as quickly as possible. Especially on departure.

 

[mikecanfly]

I was wondering the same thing...

I was tuning into Orlando Intl (MCO) tower a couple of days ago on the scanner.

After a huge T-storm came through, they added 15 min. spacing by request of Jax Center. Right after takeoff, tower would tell each aircraft to remain below 250 and contact depature.

I didn't think there was a choice. Last I checked, ATC cannot ask an aircraft to fly above 250 below 10000, can they?

 

[SF3CAP]

Does Southwest have a waiver on that 250-kt rule? Man, I've had the IAS pegged on 250, and I still see those guys going by me! Maybe it's some kinda fancy Southwest-calibrated airspeed indicator...

 

[NJA Capt]

Does Southwest have a waiver on that 250-kt rule? ...I still see those guys going by me!

Yeah...on the taxiway.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

I remember going into Midway as a new FO on the 727. Descending out of the flight levels, ATC assigned us 280 knots. Still new on the airplane, I was working hard to hold exactly 280 indicated (no autothrottles on ATA's 727s). ATC kept stepping us down, finally assigning us to cross a VOR at 6000'. Leveling at 6000 a couple of miles prior to the station, I started to beathe again when the captain said, "I don't mind you doing 280, but ATC might, so maybe you better slow it down. We're not Southwest Airlines!" I about had a heart attack, but the captain and the engineer just laughed.

Another time, going into Los Angeles, I heard this conversation on the radio.

Approach: Continental xxx, say speed.
CO xxx: (after long pause) two fifty.
Approach: Yea right! (with sounds of laughter in the background)