Sovereign vs. G150

[NGT]

Looking at both and wondering if anyone has good/bad things to say about them. I know the G150 isn't out yet but any G100/200 good/bad things would help. Any G100/200 runway and climb performance problems would be greatly appreciated. Any current sovereign drivers comments would also greatly help.
Thanks.

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

While asking for a Sovereign from Netjets in place of our Excel share, I was told by NJ that if the aircraft is topped off with fuel, you CANNOT put ANY pax on board. Sounds to me like there's a bit of trouble in Wichita!

 

[GVFlyer]

Here's the specs.

Gulfstream G150 / Cessna Soveriegn

Cabin: L 17'8" x H 5'9" x W 5'9" / L 24'2" x H 5'8" x W 5'6"

Baggage Volume: 80 cu. ft. / 124 cu. ft.

Max T/O wt: 26,100 lbs / 30,000 lbs

Max Ldg: 21,700 lbs / 27,100

Max Zero: 17,500 lbs / 20,300 lbs

Max Fuel: 10,300 lbs / 11,216 lbs

Max Payload: 2,400 lbs / 2,200 lbs

Max Payload Full Fuel: 850 lbs / 934 lbs

Engines: TFE 731-40AR / PW306C

Thrust: 2 x 4,420 lbs / 2 x 5,770 lbs

TBO: 5,000 hrs / 6,000 hrs

Normal Cruise (Mach): 0.80 / 0.72

Long range Cruise (Mach): 0.75 / 0.67

Mmo (Mach): 0.85 / 0.80

Range at Normal Cruise (4 pax, ISA NBAA IFR Reserves) 2,600 nm / 2,886 nm

Range at LRC: 2,950 nm / 2,900 nm

T/O Dist: 5,250 ft. / 3,580 ft.

Ldg Dist: 3,400 ft / 3,144 ft.

Initial Alt: FL410 / FL 410

Max Alt: FL450 / FL470

DOC: $1,324 / $1,544

Price (Millions): $13.50 / $15.04


GV

 

[johnsonrod]

Here's the specs.

Gulfstream G150 / Cessna Soveriegn

Cabin: L 17'8" x H 5'9" x W 5'9" / L 24'2" x H 5'8" x W 5'6"

Baggage Volume: 80 cu. ft. / 124 cu. ft.

Max T/O wt: 26,100 lbs / 30,000 lbs

Max Ldg: 21,700 lbs / 27,100

Max Zero: 17,500 lbs / 20,300 lbs

Max Fuel: 10,300 lbs / 11,216 lbs

Max Payload: 2,400 lbs / 2,200 lbs

Max Payload Full Fuel: 850 lbs / 934 lbs

Engines: TFE 731-40AR / PW306C

Thrust: 2 x 4,420 lbs / 2 x 5,770 lbs

TBO: 5,000 hrs / 6,000 hrs

Normal Cruise (Mach): 0.80 / 0.72

Long range Cruise (Mach): 0.75 / 0.67

Mmo (Mach): 0.85 / 0.80

Range at Normal Cruise (4 pax, ISA NBAA IFR Reserves) 2,600 nm / 2,886 nm

Range at LRC: 2,950 nm / 2,900 nm

T/O Dist: 5,250 ft. / 3,580 ft.

Ldg Dist: 3,400 ft / 3,144 ft.

Initial Alt: FL410 / FL 410

Max Alt: FL450 / FL470

DOC: $1,324 / $1,544

Price (Millions): $13.50 / $15.04


GV

That T/O distance is not very impressive for the G150. That might restrict the aircraft a bit from operating out of some airfields - something to consider. Sovereign also has more baggage space (probably not good for the pilots).

 

[Groundpounder]

Sovereign also has more baggage space (probably not good for the pilots).

How is that not good for the pilots? Its easier to pack stuff in when you have more room, just chuck it in there and shut the door, don't have to worry about stacking it just perfect.

 

[On Your Six]

How is that not good for the pilots? Its easier to pack stuff in when you have more room, just chuck it in there and shut the door, don't have to worry about stacking it just perfect.

I think Johnsonrod is talking about the need for the pilots to load and unload the large number of bags... If there is more space then that means more bags are possible and the rampers don't always load and and unload... Get it?

 

[400A]

I have been in both cabins. There is no comparison. The Soverigns cabin is far and above the G-150.

Also hard to look past Cessna's product support rankings.

I dont mind as much when the folks bring bags if there is somewhere other than the cabin to put it.

150 would be the faster of the two.

 

[some_dude]

While my actual Sovereign experience is a bit limited, I'm pretty sure most guys will end up cruising it faster than .72. I think .76 is going to be more typical-- still slower than the G150, but not by a huge amount.

 

[G100driver]

While asking for a Sovereign from Netjets in place of our Excel share, I was told by NJ that if the aircraft is topped off with fuel, you CANNOT put ANY pax on board. Sounds to me like there's a bit of trouble in Wichita!

That is scary. I have seen 2 of them in HI (not Netjets).

 

[SeaSpray]

I have been in both cabins. There is no comparison. The Soverigns cabin is far and above the G-150.

Why, is it because the Sovereign's cabin is longer? It's definitely lower and narrower than the G150's cabin.

Also hard to look past Cessna's product support rankings.

Do you mean this in a negative way? Cessna product support is certainly second to Gulfstream product support.

150 would be the faster of the two.

Yes, you're right, by at least M 0.08 at factory recommended normal cruise and LRC speeds. It's hard to understand why Cessna would bring out an aircraft with a Mach 0.72 cruise at a time when the production life of the Citation X has come to an end with no follow-on replacement.

SS






`

 

[400A]

Why, is it because the Sovereign's cabin is longer? It's definitely lower and narrower than the G150's cabin.



Do you mean this in a negative way? Cessna product support is certainly second to Gulfstream procduct support.



Yes, you're right, by at least M 0.08 at factory recommended normal cruise and LRC speeds. It's hard to understand why Cessna would bring out an aircraft with a Mach 0.72 cruise at a time when the production life of the Citation X has come to an end with no follow-on replacement.

SS

Yes, I will give up 1" in height and 2-3" in width to gain almost seven feet in length. That way you can actually put some seats in the aircraft. Something the astra series of aircraft has never been able to do in a comfortable way. If you want comfortable seating, the G150 is 6 to seven tops. Not acceptable in an aircraft of that caliber in my opinion.

And yes, I was VERY serious about product support. I have know people that fly both. G100 of course. Gulfstream made it better, but still has a way to go.

 

[some_dude]

It's also wrong, unless Netjets has very heavy aircraft or Cessna recently restricted the gross weight. The Sovereign we were going to get could carry 800 pounds with full fuel (I just checked my old Sovereign stuff).

The fuel capacity on the Sovereign is a funny story. The aircraft was initially sold to customers as being able to deliver a 2,500 mile range with full tanks and 8 pax. When Cessna got to the prototype stage, they discovered that it held more fuel than they had anticipated, giving it better range but worse payload with full tanks.

They actually considered restricting the usable fuel to meet the goal, but decided that wouldn't be smart. So, it will go 2,500 miles with 8 pax, but it doesn't take full fuel to do it. If you put full fuel on, it will go closer to 2,900 miles (no wind).

If it performs per the book (which I understand it does), West Coast - Hawaii should be no problem on most days.

That is scary. I have seen 2 of them in HI (not Netjets).

 

[421Driver]

How is that not good for the pilots? Its easier to pack stuff in when you have more room, just chuck it in there and shut the door, don't have to worry about stacking it just perfect.

He might also be refering to bigger plane=bigger suitcase=more RON's.

 

[billjets]

Yes, I will give up 1" in height and 2-3" in width to gain almost seven feet in length. That way you can actually put some seats in the aircraft. Something the astra series of aircraft has never been able to do in a comfortable way. If you want comfortable seating, the G150 is 6 to seven tops. Not acceptable in an aircraft of that caliber in my opinion.

And yes, I was VERY serious about product support. I have know people that fly both. G100 of course. Gulfstream made it better, but still has a way to go.

I have seen a presentation on both aircraft. The G150 cabin is 1 foot wider than the old Astra. Also remember the G150 does not have a "round" cross section, it's elipitical. The Sovereign has a traditional round cross section. So while there is only a few inches of difference across the center line, the G150 is 12" wider at the head and shoulder level and 16" wider at floor level.

The Cessna does have more length, and you can get a double club 8 pax interior, while the G150 would have 6 singles and a 2 place couch. Don't know about you guys but I usually don't see average load factors any higher than 4.

The Cessna's going to have a short field advantage, that may or may not be a big deal for your operations. But the G150 is going to be a good bit faster. From what I've seen and from speaking with one of the Gulfstream test pilots, .82 is going to be true normal cruise.

 

[GVFlyer]

Although the G150 is configured for eight passengers, average passenger load for this class of aircraft (which includes the Sovereign) is four.

GV

 

[400A]

I have seen a presentation on both aircraft. The G150 cabin is 1 foot wider than the old Astra. Also remember the G150 does not have a "round" cross section, it's elipitical. The Sovereign has a traditional round cross section. So while there is only a few inches of difference across the center line, the G150 is 12" wider at the head and shoulder level and 16" wider at floor level.

The Cessna does have more length, and you can get a double club 8 pax interior, while the G150 would have 6 singles and a 2 place couch. Don't know about you guys but I usually don't see average load factors any higher than 4.

The Cessna's going to have a short field advantage, that may or may not be a big deal for your operations. But the G150 is going to be a good bit faster. From what I've seen and from speaking with one of the Gulfstream test pilots, .82 is going to be true normal cruise.

I thought the G-150's cabin while much better than the G-100, Still falls way short of its competitors. I felt far more comfortable in the Hawker and Excel. In my opinion the Soverign Blew it out of the water. Then you go to the luggage comartment. Game over in that department.

Definately the slowest in the bunch, but we do .76 most of the time in the Beechjet and it works fine.

When we evaluated the G-100's hot and high, I was not impressed at all. While a much smaller cabin, the 45XR blew it away.

 

[HMR]

When we evaluated the G-100's hot and high, I was not impressed at all. While a much smaller cabin, the 45XR blew it away.

I don't know much about the 45XR but do know alot about the G100. When you say the 45XR "blew it away" do you mean with similar pax and fuel loads? Exactly how much better is the Lear?

 

[400A]

I don't know much about the 45XR but do know alot about the G100. When you say the 45XR "blew it away" do you mean with similar pax and fuel loads? Exactly how much better is the Lear?

We compared 3 missions and all the companies ran their own profiles for me.

Marfa TX, Raton NM, and Jackson Hole WY. From all three destinations depart at 35C and non-stop to Nashville. Everyone says 35C was to hot, but we had seen it at both Marfa and Raton, so we did it from all three. (almost got stuck in the Beechjet)(just going 45 min RTN-MRF)

8 pax was the load. IFR Reserves required.

We compared 800XP, G-100, and LJ45XR.

By the companies own numbers, the 45XR was the only one that could.

 

[400A]

Hmr / Rcpa

Hey HMR,

How do I join RCPA. We were allowed to stop doing charter in November.

After 12 years in the charter business, this new 225 hour a year pace is SSWWWEEETTTT!!!!

We went from all the other pilots at are home base saying YUK!!! you guys have to fly Charter, to You guys SUCK!, do you ever have to work! Are you hiring?

Gotta Love it!

 

[HMR]

Hey HMR,

How do I join RCPA. We were allowed to stop doing charter in November.

After 12 years in the charter business, this new 225 hour a year pace is SSWWWEEETTTT!!!!

We went from all the other pilots at are home base saying YUK!!! you guys have to fly Charter, to You guys SUCK!, do you ever have to work! Are you hiring?

Gotta Love it!

LOL!

Congratulations!
Your Iron-On patch and monogramed leotard are in the mail.:beer:

 

[G100driver]

.

After 12 years in the charter business, this new 225 hour a year pace is SSWWWEEETTTT!!!!

We went from all the other pilots at are home base saying YUK!!! you guys have to fly Charter, to You guys SUCK!, do you ever have to work! Are you hiring?

Gotta Love it!

Congratulations! Life as a pilot can be GREAT. Nice to have you here!

 

[GVFlyer]

We compared 3 missions and all the companies ran their own profiles for me.

Marfa TX, Raton NM, and Jackson Hole WY. From all three destinations depart at 35C and non-stop to Nashville. Everyone says 35C was to hot, but we had seen it at both Marfa and Raton, so we did it from all three. (almost got stuck in the Beechjet)(just going 45 min RTN-MRF)

8 pax was the load. IFR Reserves required.

We compared 800XP, G-100, and LJ45XR.

By the companies own numbers, the 45XR was the only one that could.

Maybe you should talk to the pilots who fly these airplanes. The Lear 45 had a difficult entry into service and has been plagued by maintenance and reliability issues since fielding.

In my view, the Hawker is a pretty good airplane although passengers tend to like the aircraft better than do the pilots who fly them.

While I may think the G100/G150 looks like what a Martian artist might render if given a telephone description of what an Earth airplane looks like, their pilots really like them.

GV





~

 

[TXGold]

Hello everyone,
I'd first like to say how informative I think GVFlyer's posts are. You always have an interesting thing or two to say about Gulfstream products.

Currently I fly the CE-680. The main complaint I have is some of the reliability issues with the plane. Being a new model, it is bound to have some teething issues. I also think less concern about price point should have been an issue, and some of the technology out there be standard. Boosted controls should have been added. I don't see why it doesn't have Auto-throttles. I think the APU should’ve originally been able to provide electricity in the air. It would also have been nice had Cessna gone with Garmin instead of Honeywell. The units Garmin has available are light, small, and easily interchangeable. Most everyone I fly the plane with is running it at .78 to .79 around FL360 to FL400. From what I understand the plane was tested at .90 and the reason the MMO is .80 is because of a lack of boosted flight controls. The BOW on the plane I fly is ~17600lbs and with full fuel we still have ~1000lbs of cargo available. Full fuel and 1000lbs, is great for this plane if you ask me. The takeoff performance on the plane is straight forward. The baggage compartment is huge. The autopilot is great once you understand how to fly it. Once Phase 3 upgrades are available, it should have Jeppview on the DMU’s and a performance computer, plus several software problems corrected (Flight Director issues). What will be interesting is when Cessna comes out with a CE-680 second edition, with a lot of the amenities mentioned above available as standard, or even optional. I wish I had some fuel burn, speed and range scenarios available for you, but I don’tJ.

Just a personal observation, but when I read the article B&CA put out I was going thru Initial at Flight Safety. From what I remember it was behind the CE-680 except for some nice system features, and cruise speed.

Good luck with your decision, and I am sure the later serial numbers will have ironed out a lot of the problems mentioned above.

TXGold

 

[GVFlyer]

Excellent, informative post, TXGold.

GV

 

[NJAFracPilot]

While I may think the G100/G150 looks like what a Martian artist might render if given a telephone description of what an Earth airplane looks like, their pilots really like them.

GV

Too funny! I'm still laughing!

 

[LegacyDriver]

WOW. You mean someone actually sells a better product than a Gulfstream?

(I kid. It's sarcasm. *wink*)

Cruise speeds from 0.76 M-0.80 M are more than respectable in my book. There are still plenty of airplanes operating in that speed range so you don't exactly have to worry about "fitting in" to the flow, IMHO. It does suck blasting off at max weight and watching a G-IV that took off five miles in trail hurtle past you in the climb, but hey...

 

[GVFlyer]

WOW. You mean someone actually sells a better product than a Gulfstream?

I didn't say that. I just said it looks funny.

It does suck blasting off at max weight and watching a G-IV that took off five miles in trail hurtle past you in the climb, but hey...

The GV will do that to the G-IV and the G550 will do that to the GV.

GV

 

[LegacyDriver]

The GV will do that to the G-IV and the G550 will do that to the GV.

GV

DANG! That's pretty impressive. I didn't realize the V and 550 were *THAT* different on the performance side. Amazing.

 

[400A]

Maybe you should talk to the pilots who fly these airplanes. The Lear 45 had a difficult entry into service and has been plagued by maintenance and reliability issues since fielding.

In my view, the Hawker is a pretty good airplane although passengers tend to like the aircraft better than do the pilots who fly them.

While I may think the G100/G150 looks like what a Martian artist might render if given a telephone description of what an Earth airplane looks like, their pilots really like them.

GV





~

We did.

We bought the 45XR, and they have had it for almost a year know. They love the aircraft.

Most clean sheet aircradt have groing pains. While they are new, I try to avoid pre SN#-100 aircraft.

 

[White Feather]

NGT -

Real men fly Falcons!

j/k - I know you.......

Good luck with whatever you end up flying.
Gimme a call man... I'll buy the first round! :beer: