Southwest's new plan to screw Airtran pilots

[General Lee]

This is what I like about the General. He's trying to refute comments made about Delta but just slings mud at SW instead of actually debating the issues the guy brought up. THEN tells us it loves debating. In what world is that a debate?

RF

Red,

I throw out there why the AT guys are upset, and what injustices SWAPA continues to heap on then (B-scale, etc), and then I hope one of you Corndogs will give any justification, or really just debate the issue. Instead, you guys take the defensive, tell me I shouldn't get involved (on an industry web board), and can only say that 83% of the AT pilots voted in favor of that 2nd deal, so they must be overjoyed. That's all you have to debate with. Then I hear hoot and hollering that "I bring home $15K checks so who cares, I'm proud to be a Corndog! Yeeeeehaw!" Talk about a group that seems totally lost. You guys just don't understand.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

LOL!! Spot on!!

And the reason for my temporary insanity. I purposely took his style of "debate". And rolled it over on him. Unfortunately Lear70 and him are aligned so Lear took some friendly fire. Sorry about that Lear. I just needed to prove that Lee just stirs the pot.

Lear70 you did get a bad deal but you think the bad deal is the SLI and its not. It is your company(AT) selling you out. I don't think you got a good deal with the SLI either. That is not to say you got a bad deal either. From our perspective it is exactly the same. Both of our 83% votes were based on the same "this is the best for our respective groups that we are going to get".

Lee is only acting like he has your back to stir the pot when he really is just using you. He really does not care about this SLI. He is just overwhelmed by hate and using you for his neurotic agenda. You must see this also. Don't you?

There are plenty of olive branches coming your way, but if you feel like we are currently mistreating you as Lee insinuates, I don't expect you to grab one. After seven airlines I can tell you this by far the best place I have ever worked. Mainly because we do a great job weeding out personalities like Lee. Nothing is 100% but our people department does a great job.

Be excited, I am sure you are getting alot of positive feedback from those that have already come over.

Total bunk. Notice I also give strong opinions in favor of other "persecuted" groups, like the USAir West pilots. I think the Easties pulled one over on the Westies and they, like you guys on FI, also see nothing wrong with their actions. It is beyond me to think that one group, usually larger, could treat their "brothers and sisters" so poorly, even while working at the same company. I understand SLIs can be contentious, I went through one, and it wasn't fun. But some Corndogs and Easties have continued to go overboard, and that is what I continue to try to point out. And btw, you never actually debate the issues, you only sidestep them.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

I throw out there why the AT guys are upset, and what injustices SWAPA continues to heap on then (B-scale, etc), and then I hope one of you Corndogs will give any justification, or really just debate the issue.

We have tried but you sling insults that many of us don't want to be a part of.

Instead, you guys take the defensive, tell me I shouldn't get involved (on an industry web board),

Because of your questionable tenacity towards this subject combined with your many years of known dislike of SWA we quickly grow tired with someone that does not have any immediate interests in our situation. It is unique and will not affect you or this industries future. Although you think different you have beat this to death.

and can only say that 83% of the AT pilots voted in favor of that 2nd deal, so they must be overjoyed.

Not true. I can not recall anyone saying that the AT pilots are "overjoyed" or its equal on this board.

That's all you have to debate with.

Equally as untrue. And as you always say, prove it?

Then I hear hoot and hollering that "I bring home $15K checks so who cares, I'm proud to be a Corndog! Yeeeeehaw!"

Interestingly I was just to act like you with your six legs to Lubbock and one leg to Paris talk. Comes off pretty bad now doesn't it?

Talk about a group that seems totally lost. You guys just don't understand.

LOL!! OK, sure, we are lost. And we just don't understand. And thats how you will think until we collectively all say, General Lee is right!!

 

[SWAdude]

Total bunk. Notice I also give strong opinions against other "persecuted" groups, like the USAir West pilots. I think the Easties pulled one over on the Westies and they, like you guys on FI, also see nothing wrong with their actions. It is beyond me to think that one group, usually larger, could treat their "brothers and sisters" so poorly, even while working at the same company. I understand SLIs can be contentious, I went through one, and it wasn't fun. But some Corndogs and Easties have continued to go overboard, and that is what I continue to try to point out. And btw, you never actually debate the issues, you only sidestep them.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Case in point. We all debate the issues with you Lee. We just don't agree with you and you take that not debating. What good is it to continue with someone that won't play fair but instead sling insults?

Fine, you think we are like Easties. We don't look at it that way and neither do many on the AT side. No matter how much time out of your life you donate to this subject you are not going to change the way anyone of us feel.

 

[General Lee]

We have tried but you sling insults that many of us don't want to be a part of.





Because of your questionable tenacity towards this subject combined with your many years of known dislike of SWA we quickly grow tired with someone that does not have any immediate interests in our situation. It is unique and will not affect you or this industries future. Although you think different you have beat this to death.




Not true. I can not recall anyone saying that the AT pilots are "overjoyed" or its equal on this board.





Equally as untrue. And as you always say, prove it?



Interestingly I was just to act like you with your six legs to Lubbock and one leg to Paris talk. Comes off pretty bad now doesn't it?



LOL!! OK, sure, we are lost. And we just don't understand. And thats how you will think until we collectively all say, General Lee is right!!

Again, many of your guys continually bring up the 83% number as to why the AT guys should be happy, instead if understanding why they voted that way. Ask some of them, they will tell you.

As far as my personal "hatred" of SWA, that is simply not true. I say all of the time that I think SWA is a good company overall, with good pay. I used to think the relations with management were enviable, until the AT purchase. Then I watched how management and SWAPA handled the merger talks (if you can call them that) and became a lot less impressed. Throw in the B scale and the unions seemingly lack of intention to speak out about keeping groups seperate (pay and operations) for a couple more years (unity?), and it just amplifies the injustice. All I have ever stated was I would never want to do your type of flying. The pay is nice, but your flying doesn't interest me. That usually sends your group into a rage, demanding to know why someone wouldn't want exactly what you have.


So, keep trying to not see the total picture with the AT guys, and stay in the dark about how bad this makes a lot of you guys look on FI. You probably just don't care, which seems prevalent amongst your group here.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Case in point. We all debate the issues with you Lee. We just don't agree with you and you take that not debating. What good is it to continue with someone that won't play fair but instead sling insults?

Fine, you think we are like Easties. We don't look at it that way and neither do many on the AT side. No matter how much time out of your life you donate to this subject you are not going to change the way anyone of us feel.

That seems obvious, but I will still bring up the injustices. Of course you don't think your side is like the Easties. They don't see their own problems either. You need to look at what happened with your own merger and acknowledge the parts that could have been handled better, and then try to get things done now that can help repair ties between your two groups. Don't stay in the dark, be proactive and figure it out.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

Again, many of your guys continually bring up the 83% number as to why the AT guys should be happy,

Again, show me where we have said they are happy based on the vote.

instead if understanding why they voted that way. Ask some of them, they will tell you.

They can speak for themselves and have. You don't need to speak for them or us.

As far as my personal "hatred" of SWA, that is simply not true. I say all of the time that I think SWA is a good company overall, with good pay. I used to think the relations with management were enviable, until the AT purchase.

I recall differently but OK.

Then I watched how management and SWAPA handled the merger talks (if you can call them that) and became a lot less impressed. Throw in the B scale and the unions seemingly lack of intention to speak out about keeping groups seperate (pay and operations) for a couple more years (unity?), and it just amplifies the injustice.

It is not a B scale. You use that term to inflame the situation. If you are sincere with healthy debate as you say you are then why not be truthful of what it is. Delta owned Comair at one time. SWA owns AT. Unlike Delta/Comair there is a plan to merge the two companies. This is what was negotiated. There is nothing anyone of us can do now and to cast blame on SWA pilots for your displeasure of this agreement is ignorant.

All I have ever stated was I would never want to do your type of flying. The pay is nice, but your flying doesn't interest me. That usually sends your group into a rage, demanding to know why someone wouldn't want exactly what you have.

It does because you purposely repeat it over and over and over again even starting unprovoked threads on the subject. You do it in an apparent way to try and insult us. And god is it old.

So, keep trying to not see the total picture with the AT guys, and stay in the dark about how bad this makes a lot of you guys look on FI. You probably just don't care, which seems prevalent amongst your group here.

Now Lee, in High School I was on the debate team and this would be a failing grade for good debate. You accuse almost everyone about not being to debate the issue. I think you really don't know what a healthy debate looks like. You need to admit that your style of debate is very unhealthy. Because it is.

 

[SWAdude]

That seems obvious, but I will still bring up the injustices. Of course you don't think your side is like the Easties. They don't see their own problems either. You need to look at what happened with your own merger and acknowledge the parts that could have been handled better, and then try to get things done now that can help repair ties between your two groups. Don't stay in the dark, be proactive and figure it out.

Apples and oranges Lee. We didn't agree to arbitration, get a result, and then use our numbers to create a different union because we were unhappy with the result. You do this to try and insult us for a result. That is your style of debate. It does not apply and don't see very many on this board agreeing with you on this one.

You are suggesting something impossible. We agreed that in two years we will be on the same pay scale. You need to move on from that. No matter how strong I feel for something different I will be wasting my time.

Lee, both sides have agreed to something no matter what the details are and that ship has sailed. There is nothing any one of us can do about that no different than Dalpa allowing non union labor flying airframes that say Delta Airlines on the side of their jet aircraft. Right?

 

[General Lee]

Apples and oranges Lee. We didn't agree to arbitration, get a result, and then use our numbers to create a different union because we were unhappy with the result. You do this to try and insult us for a result. That is your style of debate. It does not apply and don't see very many on this board agreeing with you on this one.

You are suggesting something impossible. We agreed that in two years we will be on the same pay scale. You need to move on from that. No matter how strong I feel for something different I will be wasting my time.

Lee, both sides have agreed to something no matter what the details are and that ship has sailed. There is nothing any one of us can do about that no different than Dalpa allowing non union labor flying airframes that say Delta Airlines on the side of their jet aircraft. Right?

Wasn't arbitration agreed to in the Process agreement? I thought GK agreed to it. In the end, it seems like angry words got to the better of some people, and the second offer was produced. When is that EVER good? Where was SWAPA then?

A quote from Lear:

"Secondly, it wasn't our MEC that put us in this position, it was Gary Kelly the day he wrote the letter that threatened non-integration and the slow spin-down of AirTran and our careers in violation of the Process Agreement. It's just that simple."

And I know both sides have "sailed", unfortunately SWAPA allowed a B-scale, which today is ridiculous. That should be worked on. If it isn't, it just seems like a form of punishment. Can you see why some AT people might be upset? Can ya?

And I'm sorry, but using the outsourcing analogy is just wrong. You do it too with Volaris. They take SWA pax in LA or MDW and take them to Guadalajara. They do. DL has had regional feed for 30 plus years, going to small cities that can't be fed by a mainline sized plane. Hub and spoke is totally different, because feed from small cities is different than your point to point stuff. In fact, you are dumping 17 AT cities that your people deemed unflyable. Can't you put 737s into Tunica? Why not? You know that. Quit trying to equate the two.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

General,

Do me a favor.

Go back to POST #55,

then read your response on POST #63.

You didn't talk about anything he brought up in post 55.

How are you supposed to be some 'master debater' when you completely dodge the other person and start slinging mud at his company? How do you think you win a debate that way?