Southwest Uniform Leather jacket

[Flycatcher99]

You earned it, and we didn't, huh?

That's a laugh. I earned my fourth stripe when you were still learning the door code and how to call for pushback, sister.

I heard that some AT guys upgraded in as little as 18 months. So you're probably right.

 

[madjack]

It's not really "earning". It's doing the time as an FO at SWA vs being acquired and integrated by SWA...poor choice of words...

 

[Ty Webb]

It's not really "earning". It's doing the time as an FO at SWA vs being acquired and integrated by SWA...poor choice of words...

Yeah, tell that to the NWA guys who are part of DAL, or the CAL guys at United.

The SWA guys I have flown with get it. The whiners and criers on here are the exceptions... But, hey, if your fragile ego depends on convincing yourself that you are somehow a better pilot than the former AT guy you are working next to, then I certainly don't want to shatter your fragile psyche. Carry on.

Rock that reserve schedule, MJ! You earned it!

 

[Ty Webb]

I heard that some AT guys upgraded in as little as 18 months. So you're probably right.

The 18 month upgrades ended in early 2002, I upgraded in 2004.

 

[Sluggo_63]

As long as it's the same amount of money (including 401-K match), individually calculated per pilot's actual work, I don't care if it's called a bonus or retro, or even friggin' fairy dust, for that matter. It's the same money to each pilot, and taxable the same way.

Bubba

That's probably not going to happen since the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 was passed. Retro causes the corporation to have to go back and amend their earning from previous years. I believe it would also trigger, then, each pilot to have to go back and refile for the years that they earned the pay.

You'll get a bonus check.

And, I know our two companies are different animals, but... why would you want the money based on each pilot's actual work? Over here, we don't want to reward all the "hogs" that were at the trough while we were in contract negotiations that prolonged us even getting a TA. Not that I would personally discourage anyone from working overtime, since it is their contractual right, and we are not released to self-help. But many of us, individually and personally, thought that maybe spending time with our families was more important than spending time in an airplane, especially when our employer doesn't seem to value us by dragging their feet negotiating a CBA.

 

[SWA Bubba]

That's probably not going to happen since the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 was passed. Retro causes the corporation to have to go back and amend their earning from previous years. I believe it would also trigger, then, each pilot to have to go back and refile for the years that they earned the pay.

You'll get a bonus check.

And, I know our two companies are different animals, but... why would you want the money based on each pilot's actual work? Over here, we don't want to reward all the "hogs" that were at the trough while we were in contract negotiations that prolonged us even getting a TA. Not that I would personally discourage anyone from working overtime, since it is their contractual right, and we are not released to self-help. But many of us, individually and personally, thought that maybe spending time with our families was more important than spending time in an airplane, especially when our employer doesn't seem to value us by dragging their feet negotiating a CBA.

You might be correct about the company having to amend prior years' financials; I don't know for sure. But you're incorrect about individuals--income is taxed the year it was paid, regardless of the year it was earned. That applies to all individual income. Retro would end up being a lump sum to us, presumidly paid and taxed to us in 2015. Or 2016, if it takes that long.

Retro should be paid for actual work in the name of basic fairness. It represents all pilots getting paid for their individual work efforts at the rates they should have been getting all along, in the years we didn't have a contract simply because the company dragged its feet. Why should I, a "regular line" worker (averaging 100-ish TFPs/month), or anyone else not working overtime "to spend more time with their families," get paid part of the salary earned by another pilot who worked harder than me/them? Also, why should a pilot who only averages 50 TFPs (say he/she has a rich spouse, and gives away a lot) get some of the money that -I- actually earned? Again, it's basic fairness.

Companies with CBAs that have gone beyond amenable dates pay retro when a contract is reached, as a disincentive to stalling, or slow-rolling negotiations; this way they pay all the money they would have if contractual raises had gone into effect on time. In all actuality, they should really pay calculated retro plus interest, as there's still a smaller incentive to stall, in the time-value of the workers' money they held for that period. Interest would make sure that neither the company benefitted, not the workers lost any money, for the delay. However, that never happens. Retro itself is generally thought of as making the workers "whole."

My other point was that the company can call it a "bonus" if they want (if it makes their financials easier, for instance), as long as they pay all the calculated money that each pilot earned while they stalled. That way, each pilot is made "whole," and the company has one less incentive to stall in future negotiations.

Bubba

 

[madjack]

I don't seem to be the one with a fragile ego...Captain Webb

 

[madjack]

Or the chip on his shoulder

 

[Ty Webb]

Whatever, MJ.

Obviously, you are back on reserve, and not digging it.

Maybe you should take a page from ol' Ty and just enjoy the life of the senior FO for a while.

 

[madjack]

I'm considering just that...but LC program is going away...I don't bid reserve because I commute...there is movement below me on CP list as many FATs go to upgrade...good for everyone...some RSWs would argue that point...I am flying with a FAT CP today...though I don't think he got screwed and will have little sympathy if he whines, I will keep my views to myself...

 

[twepilot]

...though I don't think he got screwed and will have little sympathy if he whines, I will keep my views to myself...[/QUOTE]

Of course you'll keep your views to yourself..Without a keyboard and an internet connection you have no courage.

RV

 

[madjack]

Ok I'll bring it up just for you...can I quote YOUR name??

 

[Ty Webb]

Ok I'll bring it up just for you...can I quote YOUR name??

Sure.....as long as you're willing to post yours.

 

[madjack]

You first Captain

 

[EngineThunder]

Don't kid yourselves, this board isn't that anonymous.

 

[Ty Webb]

Don't kid yourselves, this board isn't that anonymous.

Yep, and that's a big part of why it is just a shadow of what it used to be.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

It's not really "earning". It's doing the time as an FO at SWA vs being acquired and integrated by SWA...poor choice of words...

I was in the left seat for 9 years, how many years of "doing time as an FO at SWA" do I need to do?

 

[madjack]

When can u upgrade?

 

[UALX727]

I was in the left seat at the Tran for 6 years, looking at the list,,, I still won't get back there for at least 3-4 years. That could change I guess. For now, I'm just enjoying my F.O. seniority and chilling out. Not in any hurry to commute again. FWIW

 

[Sluggo_63]

You might be correct about the company having to amend prior years' financials; I don't know for sure. But you're incorrect about individuals--income is taxed the year it was paid, regardless of the year it was earned. That applies to all individual income. Retro would end up being a lump sum to us, presumidly paid and taxed to us in 2015. Or 2016, if it takes that long.

Yeah, I wasn't sure about the individual tax part.

Retro should be paid for actual work in the name of basic fairness. It represents all pilots getting paid for their individual work efforts at the rates they should have been getting all along, in the years we didn't have a contract simply because the company dragged its feet.

I get what retro pay is. The question becomes, why did the company drag it's feet and is there anything that pilots can do to maybe nudge the company in lifting it's feet and maybe walk at a brisker pace towards a contract. Maybe you and I differ on what that may be. At FedEx, the company typically drags it's feet until the general pilot population gets fed up enough to individually decide that they are fed up with the company's shenanigans and to maybe not pick up an extra trip or take the draft trip when offered. Then schedules start falling apart, freight gets left on ramps, and the company has a more difficult time getting pilots to pick up the phone.

But, talking to my SWA buds, I think our pilot group and your pilot group are very similar. We have a bunch of guys who bleed purple and orange and who can see the short term benefit of exercising their individual right to refrain from flying extra. I would never try and coerce anybody into not exercising their individual right to fly extra. I just may not want to exercise my individual right to be chummy with them, go have a beer on a layover with them, etc. But that's me...

Why should I, a "regular line" worker (averaging 100-ish TFPs/month), or anyone else not working overtime "to spend more time with their families," get paid part of the salary earned by another pilot who worked harder than me/them? (maybe if they weren't working so hard, you wouldn't need a retro check) Also, why should a pilot who only averages 50 TFPs (say he/she has a rich spouse, and gives away a lot) get some of the money that -I- actually earned? (maybe to reward them for possibly moving talks along to get a TA quicker) Again, it's basic fairness.

Companies with CBAs that have gone beyond amenable dates pay retro when a contract is reached, as a disincentive to stalling, or slow-rolling negotiations; this way they pay all the money they would have if contractual raises had gone into effect on time. In all actuality, they should really pay calculated retro plus interest, as there's still a smaller incentive to stall, in the time-value of the workers' money they held for that period. Interest would make sure that neither the company benefitted, not the workers lost any money, for the delay. However, that never happens. Retro itself is generally thought of as making the workers "whole."

My other point was that the company can call it a "bonus" if they want (if it makes their financials easier, for instance), as long as they pay all the calculated money that each pilot earned while they stalled. That way, each pilot is made "whole," and the company has one less incentive to stall in future negotiations.

Bubba

I'm curious to see if the retro/bonus SWA pays you guys in this contract comes close to making each individual whole for the trips they flew at the rate they should have flown them. I'm guessing they're going to throw you guys a chunk of change all tell SWAPA "divvy it up as you see fit." I could be wrong, though. It's happened before.

Either way, I wish you guys good luck and hope your TA is better than ours.

 

[madjack]

UAL...how long were you an FO at AAI? Did you take the first upgrade? Why wouldn't you do that at SWA? We have OSW FOs that are looking at over 12 years in the right seat to upgrade...the integration only lengthened that time...unlike you they will not enjoy a better future and airline career because of a purchase/integration...congrats to you and your family, judging by your forum name you've been furloughed...

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm curious to see if the retro/bonus SWA pays you guys in this contract comes close to making each individual whole for the trips they flew at the rate they should have flown them. I'm guessing they're going to throw you guys a chunk of change all tell SWAPA "divvy it up as you see fit." I could be wrong, though. It's happened before.

Either way, I wish you guys good luck and hope your TA is better than ours.

Yours is a good question, Sluggo, and I suppose we'll see what's in store in this upcoming TA. The last contract paid retro pay exactly as it should be calculated: with each pilot receiving a check representing the difference between his pre-TA wage and what his wages should have been for each of those years, expressed for the exact hours he worked each year. In theory, made whole.

That's what we all expected for this contract. However, based on what the FAs were offered this year (and rejected), the company offered a "bonus," which, in theory could offer more than retro would have. The bonus (covering all included TA years) was tailored for each FA and their individual amount of work, but based only on last year's worked hours, instead of each included year looked at individually. If you always worked the same amount every year, you were probably ahead of actual retro. But if last year was an extremely slow one for you, you might not be. Bottom line: a bonus might work for retro, if it's enough, and it's calculated to represent each pilots efforts.

The real problem with their TA, was that it gave alternating 3% raises with 3% bonuses each year. The "bonus" years might give you the same amount of money that particular year, but for each remaining year of the rest of your career, you'd be 3% behind on your pay scale for each "bonus" year in the agreed contract. A one-time bonus might be an acceptable form of paying retro, but it is not acceptable in lieu of any year's pay raise.

To answer your other question about "stalling" negotiations, and pilots not working extra to "nudge" it along, I don't think it would work the same at Southwest as it does there. This company intentionally mans lean, based on a certain percentage of pilots wanting to work extra. Lots of guys hire on here specifically for that reason. In fact premium extra time is often literally fought over here, because you can make so much bank if you want to. The company expects to pay a certain percentage at premium rates; it's in their manning model. It generally works for us, company and pilots alike. I don't think the large percentage of high earners would intentionally try to work less to push the company in a negotiation. Besides, the company wouldn't "get it," even if they did. When they're out of volunteers for premium-pay extra fly (usually only in the summer), they JA or add-on (force) someone to do it, often for the same cost they were offering it for in the first place. If it came to the case where there were no volunteers, and nobody was even legal to force, they'd take it as a sign to hire more, like they're doing now. I can't see how it would make them want to hasten negotiations. They wouldn't tie the two things together.

I suspect that manning and scheduling are WAY different between here and FedEx. For one, I assume your scheduling is a lot more consistent throughout the year. Ours isn't. If we hire too many pilots, then people bitch about being overstaffed, and there's no extra flying to get (other than summer, that is). You know pilots--they're never happy!

Bubba

 

[fr8doggie]

The last contract paid retro pay exactly as it should be calculated: with each pilot receiving a check representing the difference between his pre-TA wage and what his wages should have been for each of those years, expressed for the exact hours he worked each year. In theory, made whole.

Bubba

Do you recall what the retro checks were for, percentage wise? Dollar wise? How many years were you in negotiations?

Our T/A has a 10% raise the first year so a "real" retro check should be 10% of the money earned during negotiations? For us that is 2.5 years.

2.5 x yearly salary x 10% = Retro?

For the average FDX widebody Capt. that would be $65,000+. Based on approx. 1,000CH/year. It could be over $100,000 for some...

What do you think the average would be for a SWA Capt? I would be totally blown away if you got that.

 

[fr8doggie]

To answer your other question about "stalling" negotiations, and pilots not working extra to "nudge" it along, I don't think it would work the same at Southwest as it does there. This company intentionally mans lean, based on a certain percentage of pilots wanting to work extra. Lots of guys hire on here specifically for that reason. In fact premium extra time is often literally fought over here, because you can make so much bank if you want to. The company expects to pay a certain percentage at premium rates; it's in their manning model. It generally works for us, company and pilots alike. I don't think the large percentage of high earners would intentionally try to work less to push the company in a negotiation. Besides, the company wouldn't "get it," even if they did. When they're out of volunteers for premium-pay extra fly (usually only in the summer), they JA or add-on (force) someone to do it, often for the same cost they were offering it for in the first place. If it came to the case where there were no volunteers, and nobody was even legal to force, they'd take it as a sign to hire more, like they're doing now. I can't see how it would make them want to hasten negotiations. They wouldn't tie the two things together.

I suspect that manning and scheduling are WAY different between here and FedEx. For one, I assume your scheduling is a lot more consistent throughout the year. Ours isn't. If we hire too many pilots, then people bitch about being overstaffed, and there's no extra flying to get (other than summer, that is). You know pilots--they're never happy!

Bubba

Given the above: How would you exert "leverage" or pressure on management to conclude negotiations in a timely fashion with an acceptable T/A?

As for FDX- We are entering our busiest time of the year extremely undermanned!

 

[27 driver]

Given the above: How would you exert "leverage" or pressure on management to conclude negotiations in a timely fashion with an acceptable T/A?

As for FDX- We are entering our busiest time of the year extremely undermanned!

The guys and gals at SWA will never stop picking up open time. Especially premium. It's like crack to those who partake. They have even created elaborate scam clubs (cartels) to get more than contractually allowed. Never gonna happen and management knows it.

 

[humveedriver]

UAL...how long were you an FO at AAI? Did you take the first upgrade? Why wouldn't you do that at SWA? We have OSW FOs that are looking at over 12 years in the right seat to upgrade...the integration only lengthened that time...unlike you they will not enjoy a better future and airline career because of a purchase/integration...congrats to you and your family, judging by your forum name you've been furloughed...

MJ there are a lot of folks OSW and FAT that are bypassing for any number of reasons. The biggest one would be schedule QOL is not worth the 30 percent pay raise. Which is actually a lot less when you compare the earning potential of a 10 percent FO to a bottom 3 percent Captain. I have flown with several FO's who retired from the military and also indicate that they are concerned about their upgrade times? These folks are always older than me, so I can't help but wonder why they didn't leave the military sooner to get a better seniority number at their airlines of choice? If stability and retirement is the answer. Then why complain about upgrade times if you get 3200 per month from Uncle Sam and enjoy weekends off earning 15K a month from the airline? Seems like it monetarily its a wash. Those of us who went civilian and young have better seniority, but took more risk (furlough fodder big airline, or new airlines that don't make it).

 

[SWA Bubba]

Do you recall what the retro checks were for, percentage wise? Dollar wise? How many years were you in negotiations?

Our T/A has a 10% raise the first year so a "real" retro check should be 10% of the money earned during negotiations? For us that is 2.5 years.

2.5 x yearly salary x 10% = Retro?

For the average FDX widebody Capt. that would be $65,000+. Based on approx. 1,000CH/year. It could be over $100,000 for some...

What do you think the average would be for a SWA Capt? I would be totally blown away if you got that.

I think you might be looking at it wrong. I don't remember what percentage was, and I don't have time right now to research from the contract what the percent raise each year of the contract went for, so I'll explain with generic simple numbers.

If you're making $100 tfp (or hour for you guys), and your contract expired Jan 1 of 2012 with your final raise, and it took until now to negotiate, but in your TA, you negotiated 5% in 2013, 5% in 2014 and 5% in 2015, then "true" retro would be calculated as follows: $5/tfp for every trip worked in 2013 (5% raise on your 2012 $100 rate), then $10.25 for every tfp worked in 2014 (5% raise on your 2013 $105 rate), then $15.76 for every tfp worked so far in 2015 (5% raise on your 2014 110.25 rate). Total that up, and that's your retro amount. Your new pay scale for rest of 2015 would be $115.76 per tfp. That's the way our last contract calculated and paid retro, of course with different rates and different percentage raises per year.

Our flight attendant TA was two years overdue, and they offered something different than "true" retro. They said that instead of two 3% raises for those years (true retro would be approximately 6.1% of the average of the two years), the offered what they called "retro-plus" of a bonus of 8% of the last year's work (rather then the average of the two years). For the most part, this would be more than true retro for most (with the exception of people who worked significantly less last year than the year before), but there was only a 3% actual raise for that two year period, instead of two 3% raises. The "retro-plus" was generally more money up front, but they're already "behind" 3% pay rate for the rest of their career. I guess they thought that FAs would jump at cash up front.

Your calculations are actually too little for true retro. If you got a 10% raise the first year, then say, a 5% raise the second year, then you should get 10% of your first years' work, then 15.5% of your second year's work. That's more than your assumed 10% times your 2 year's work. With raises of that high of percentages, true retro will indeed add up to some serious change, especially for high earners. I wouldn't be surprised if your company tried to negotiate set bonuses instead of true retro.

I can't imagine our raises being 10% or even 5%, so retro for us wouldn't be as high as that, but I do remember last time, some captains getting retro checks of $50k or more.

Hope that helps!

Bubba

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

When can u upgrade?

Could have upgraded months ago if I wanted to commute, sit on reserve, and make even less than I am now. Does that sound enticing to you?

 

[madjack]

Sounds like a personal choice...nice to have options....I'm sure those upgrading appreciate it[emoji3]

 

[fr8doggie]

Your calculations are actually too little for true retro. If you got a 10% raise the first year, then say, a 5% raise the second year, then you should get 10% of your first years' work, then 15.5% of your second year's work. That's more than your assumed 10% times your 2 year's work. With raises of that high of percentages, true retro will indeed add up to some serious change, especially for high earners. I wouldn't be surprised if your company tried to negotiate set bonuses instead of true retro.

I can't imagine our raises being 10% or even 5%, so retro for us wouldn't be as high as that, but I do remember last time, some captains getting retro checks of $50k or more.

Hope that helps!

Bubba

That is incredible, really! I hope that you can get that in your next contract. For us we were given a signing bonus. $35,000 for widebody Capt. down to $20,000 for a narrowbody F/O.

Thanks for the clarification.