Southwest taxis past me while I roll out on landing

[stupidpilot]

total exaggeration

Afraid not. OUt of ELP a long time ago we were taxiing behind SWA. My capt tried to catch up with him, GPS groundspeed readout said 56Kts and he was still pulling away!(Not too long after that I heard about the FOM change.)

 

[2EASYPilot]

Carbon Brakes

^^

Wow, nice post. Thank you.

You are more than welcome. We have had some of the same questions come up on our aircraft with carbon brakes.

 

[firstthird]

SWA 737s don't have carbon brakes, they are steal/alloy. Boeing is looking at some carbon replacements as a way to save weight but apparently the turn times are a problem. it takes carbon/ceramic brakes longer to dissipate the heat after landing than good old steel/alloy brakes. not a problem on a 777 or a 787 but a problem on a short haul, point to point operation standpoint.

it could be that other carriers have something besides standard brakes in their 737s but SWA is not one of them as far as I know. which isn't all that far, admittedly

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, I might be wrong here but I believe keeping heat in the brakes is exactly how you keep them from wearing on carbon-ceramic systems. Application of the brakes when cold actually wears more of the material away than when heated which is why the manufacturers recommend a solid application of brakes during the rollout-so as to bring the pads up to operating temperature and reduce wear during taxi.

There's a video from an brake oem out there that discusses this and gives a demo, I'm looking for it.

Anyway, by the logic of the brake manufacturers taxiing faster is actually better in terms of brake wear and function.

You are right about the solid pressure. It also will keep the brakes cooler giving one hard application rather than long gentle ones.
What I'm advocating is managing your momentum smoothly with minimal power to taxi, and not needing a lot of brake to stop. I feel that is easier on the whole airplane and the passengers.
Trail braking works real good in that car in your avatar, not so much in a airplane!
I would be curious to see the video, I don't mean to come across as I'm right, I'm just giving my perspective.

 

[Dan Roman]

and I gotta stress I'm not bashing SWA. They are a great airline that is very good at what they do and their employee's seem to really like working there. I think most of the people bashing them are jealous or couldn't get hired.

 

[firstthird]

I have flown with one or two of our fast taxi guys. although in the last 2 or 3 years, I think that I've only made the "groundspeed" call out 5 or 6 times, all with the same guy on the same trip, who is now on my avoidance bid list. seems like he wanted to sidewall stress test the tires around every corner.

most guys are pretty good about not exceeding the 30 knots, although I doubt we are as smooth as the legacies when it comes to taxiing, but I'm not the one doing it. ain't no tiller on the FO side midshipmen.

 

[glasspilot1]

Sooooooo, why not use the reversers at idle to slow you down?

Just for some trivia.....at TWA on the 727, if you had all 3 running the Capt was authorized to use the number 2 in reverse to control the taxi speed and reduce brake usage. I did it quite a few times, but TWA was into 1 or 2 engine taxi even in the 90's so the opportunity to use it didn't present itself much.

 

[PulluP]

Quote: "the MDW accident was caused by a thrust reverser that didn't deploy."

Not exactly:


●

Chicago, Illinois, December 8, 2005 (1 fatality)
On December 8, 2005, about 1914​

central standard time, Southwest Airlines flight 1248, a Boeing 737-7H4, N471WN, ran off the

departure end of runway 31C after landing at Chicago Midway International Airport, Chicago, Illinois.

The airplane rolled through a blast fence, an airport perimeter fence, and onto an adjacent roadway,
where it struck an automobile before coming to a stop. A child in the automobile was killed, one
automobile occupant received serious injuries, and three other automobile occupants received minor
injuries. Eighteen of the 103 airplane occupants (98 passengers, 3 flight attendants, and 2 pilots)
received minor injuries, and the airplane was substantially damaged. The airplane had departed from
Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport, Baltimore, Maryland.
The NTSB determined that the probable cause of this accident was the pilots’ failure to use
available reverse thrust in a timely manner to safely slow or stop the airplane after landing, which
resulted in a runway overrun. This failure occurred because the pilots’ first experience and lack of
familiarity with the airplane’s autobrake system distracted them from thrust reverser usage during the
challenging landing.
Contributing to the accident were Southwest Airlines’ 1) failure to provide its pilots with clear
and consistent guidance and training regarding company policies and procedures related to arrival
landing distance calculations; 2) programming and design of its on board performance computer,
which did not present inherent assumptions in the program critical to pilot decision-making; 3) plan to
implement new autobrake procedures without a familiarization period; and 4) failure to include a
margin of safety in the arrival assessment to account for operational uncertainties. Also contributing
to the accident was the pilots’ failure to divert to another airport given reports that included poor​

​

braking action and a tailwind component greater than 5 knots. Contributing to the severity of the​

accident was the absence of an engineering materials arresting system, which was needed because​

of the limited runway safety area beyond the departure end of runway 31C.​

Text from NTSB document:
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_...ia/Handouts/NTSB Runway Safety Fact Sheet.pdf​

 

[firstthird]

good work Sherlock. They tried to get the TRs up, they didn't come up, finally the FO reseated them and they came up. Not sure why they didn't come up the first time, but the NTSB report is correct, thrust reverse was not used in a timely manner.

either way, it had ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with taxiing fast or being cowboys or whatever other stereotype you might want to throw out there.

 

[PulluP]

either way, it had ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with taxiing fast or being cowboys or whatever other stereotype you might want to throw out there.

I didn't say it had to do with anything.

 

[firstthird]

Sorry, I only brought it up because some idiot earlier in the thread used the boy's death in the MDW accident to score some points about SWA taxiing fast. I just replied that taxiing fast or hurrying had nothing to do with that accident.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I have flown with one or two of our fast taxi guys. although in the last 2 or 3 years, I think that I've only made the "groundspeed" call out 5 or 6 times, all with the same guy on the same trip, who is now on my avoidance bid list. seems like he wanted to sidewall stress test the tires around every corner. QUOTE]

Is that the new CRM? If someone isn't doing it right, just avoid them so someone else, probably junior, has to deal with them?

 

[firstthird]

I was a good copilot and attempted to get him to slow down and taxi more normally. I was unsuccessful. He is a fine person and probably a good pilot. Maybe he was having a bad day or was tired from the commute. I don't know.

Maybe I'm the one with the problem. Maybe I follow some of the rules too closely. either way, life is too short and I value my license too highly to fly a whole month with him by choice. If he shows up, I'll fly. I don't think he is unsafe, just a little more comfortable bending the rules than me. or more precisely, he chooses to bend different ones than I do. or something like that. But thanks for your concern.

So, Mr. Rockwell, you have no one on your avoidance bid? You haven't flown with one pilot here at SWA that you'd rather not fly with again? or are you a Captain? maybe you're that guy. get many "groundspeed" calls as you careen around the airport at 40 knots?

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Good let me know who you are so I can make sure you will never be here.

Oohhh I just love it when you flaunt your power Capt Slaquer5...Is it ok that I call you Capt?

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I was a good copilot and attempted to get him to slow down and taxi more normally. I was unsuccessful. He is a fine person and probably a good pilot. Maybe he was having a bad day or was tired from the commute. I don't know.

Maybe I'm the one with the problem. Maybe I follow some of the rules too closely. either way, life is too short and I value my license too highly to fly a whole month with him by choice. If he shows up, I'll fly. I don't think he is unsafe, just a little more comfortable bending the rules than me. or more precisely, he chooses to bend different ones than I do. or something like that. But thanks for your concern.

So, Mr. Rockwell, you have no one on your avoidance bid? You haven't flown with one pilot here at SWA that you'd rather not fly with again? or are you a Captain? maybe you're that guy. get many "groundspeed" calls as you careen around the airport at 40 knots?

If you think it is an issue where you think that your certificate or safety is at issue, bring it up to the individual (sounds like you did), if that doesn't work, bring it to prof standards and then to a chief. The avoidance bid is too much of an easy way out, and it is human nature to take the path of least resistance, usually. We are all the problem when this mindset becomes the culture. It would be interesting to see how many on the avoidance list have never been mention to professional standards.

Never had anyone on avoidance, it wasn't available. I picked up a fair amount of OT with a guy that ended up being one of the top avoidance captains.

If I get a groundspeed call I hope that I will reply thank you and slow to 30 or less.

 

[Mach 80]

Use your heads. When your in a busy ramp area, lots of nearby airplanes and traffic --- slower taxi speeds.

A long mile or 2 mile taxi on a long straightaway taxiway -- absolutely no problem in taxiing at 29 knots with a 737 with steel brakes. Unless your a/c has some sort of mandated taxi speed restriction, there is extremely little safety added to taxi at 8 knots versus 25 knots on a long 2 mile taxiway, after all, the plane goes way over 100 knots on the ground on take-off and landing. If you see me taxi by you at 29knots while you are at 18 knots slowing down after your landing .....too bad and I don't care. You had your primary instructors back in your Cessna 150 days drum "no faster than a fast walk" into your heads so much that you can't get past it and out of your head. Use your brain -- allow the situation to dicatate your speed.

 

[freightdogfred]

Happy hour?
Commute flight home?
Getting away from the dork in the seat next to you?
Anyone else?

Mr "C's" ?