Southwest Sim Instructor v. Flushback

[AA_Flushback]

Ok, I have no idea what to do about this one. Just when I had finally decided to flowback to AE I get an opportunity to work for SWA as a Simulator Instructor. Any thoughts?

Pro's and cons as I see them

SWA SiM:

1.) 3-year lock-in. I can’t interview as a pilot for LUV for 3 years. I'm hoping for a call soon just like everyone else. CON

2.) There is a 50/50 or so chance that you will not pass the pilot interview at SWA the first time based on stats from previous years. Pretty good chance (100%) that I will in 3 years with SWA based on 3 other friends of mine that were hired there after being Sim instructors first. PRO

3.) Being home every night. PRO

Eagle:

1.) More JET PIC. I already have 1500+ but it has been 6 years since I have logged any. This would probably make me more competitive at SWA. PRO

2.) Commuting to reserve SUX! I live in DFW but the chances of being based here with AE are slim. CON

3.) I give up my furlough pay if I flowback $$.$$$ but I get a ERJ-145 type rating out of it.


Pay is about the same for both positions.

I loved my job at AA. Times have changed. I would luv to work at Southwest for the same reasons that everyone else does. The Sim Instructor gig would be an excellent way to spend a furlough. I just don't know if 3 years to wait for a chance to interview at Southwest is worth foregoing the opportunity in the next year or so. I would have to guess that I'm pretty competitive and would get a call soon. This is the classic "Bird in the Hand versus 2 in the bush scenario the way I see it.

Any thoughts?

 

[English]

No brainer - go to SWA. Have you thought about the type of reception you are going to get on the line at Eagle? And that's if you make it through training.

Why be miserable when you can work in a friendly environment such as at SWA?

 

[blzr]

How much time do you have in the Industry?

Would seem to me that if you have, say 20 more years left to fly for the airlines, the sim job sounds great.

Do you like peace of mind? That is very hard to come by these days in aviation. I know from experience that holding a line with a regional, much less being on reserve, $ux. Schedueling is always going to mess with you one way or another.

With the sim, fairly steady gig. So what about the type in a 145. You will be able to interview with LUV and most likely be hired after 3 years, know alot of the pilots, and have a fairly secure job for the ling haul.

On the other hand, AA could call you back next year, although not likely.

Seems that you need to decide what's most important to you and go with it. Money Ain't Everything.

Would Eagle be paying you the same as a LUV instructor?

Anyway, Good Luck

 

[jetexas]

SWA - work for a company that actively supports it employees and where folks seem to be content.

Eagle - Work for a company that uses negative reinforcement and has a long history of questionable treatment of its employees.

The choice is easy.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I would sim instruct in your position.

1st reason--I think the instructor gig would improve your resume. Eagle would too with more PIC time, but I think they are equal in keeping you competitive for an airline interview.

Are you thinking of eagle 'cause you think it will be easier for the same cash?? I would pick the instructor job just for the experience to try something new.

2nd reason--Improve chances at SWA while keeping the door open to being a sim instructor the rest of your working days. Seriously, you may decide instructing is better than going on trips or sitting reserve. You never know when you may lose your medical. You can still interview at other airlines while making friends at SWA.

 

[C77MD80]

I would get out of the sh!tty AMR environment and witness how quality treatment of employees looks and feels. Working for eagle......CON times tree thousand million zillion.

 

[350DRIVER]

I would not even contemplate the sim instructor position since you are pretty much "stuck" and will continue to be stuck for 3 years, ouch.. Take the gig at AE, pretty much a no brainer. If you do not care about flying then go for the sim gig but a three year lock just for the "chance" to interview for a pilot position? You may even get the recall in a year, who knows...


I would not even think twice about this one with your flight times and experience.

3 5 0

 

[pipejockey]

Well some of wish we were in this position. As long as SWA doesn't make you resign your seniority # at AA, it sounds like a sweet deal. If you were in the last round of furloughs at AA or are scheduled to be a March furlough, I think your furlough will be no more than a year. Hopefully you can jump back to AA when they come calling.

 

[F-eagle]

Please don't take my seat! I need the PIC a lot more than you do. Plus, Eagle sucks, if you are even thinking about flowing back then you are out of touch with the reality of what it is like to sit on the bottom of the reserve list, at Eagle.

 

[Hagar17]

SWA Sim v.s. AE RJ

AA_Flushback:

Check your PMs.

Hag

 

[amcnd]

I guess your bid closes tonight. I would not come to Eagle as you will spend your days in a crewlounge not knowing what to do or what you are going to do.( acualy I think most the flowbacks avoid the crewlounge, they are afraid of the hostility) Plus you most likely will be in BOS or LGA on ready reserve, tell recalled.

 

[Hagar17]

Why the hostility?

I guess your bid closes tonight. I would not come to Eagle as you will spend your days in a crewlounge not knowing what to do or what you are going to do.( acualy I think most the flowbacks avoid the crewlounge, they are afraid of the hostility) Plus you most likely will be in BOS or LGA on ready reserve, tell recalled.

amcnd:

Let me start by saying I am NOT trying to pick a fight with you or any other AE pilot. I just don't understand something and I need you or another AE pilot to explain it to me in a non-hostile, professional manner.

I can not understand why you would say a AA flowback could not sit in the AE crew lounge because "they are afraid of the hostility."

The flowback is a contractually specified benefit that APA and ALPA agreed upon, long before any AA flowback was even on AMR property. Pilots like AA_Flushback are only benefiting (?) from the same agreement that AE flowthroughs were benefiting from less than 3 years ago.

Now I understand that both sides tried to change the agreement mid-stream, and I think that is despicable. I don't thing AA flowbacks should get any more of your captains jobs than before, nor do I think ALPA and the AE pilots should try to block flowbacks from taking seats they were rightfully entitled to, just as the AE flowthroughs rightfully were entitled to seats at AA. The AE flowthroughs didn't "earn" their place at AA anymore than the AA flowbacks are "entitled" to their captain's seat at AE.

I think both sides were trying to get more than the contract between APA and ALPA specified. I hold APA in as much contempt for trying to get extra RJ capts jobs as I do ALPA and the AE pilots for their "hostility" towards the AA flowbacks.

FWIW, I am not flowing back to AE. With no chance of ever gaining relative seniority at AE and never having the chance to get off reserve, or even ready reserve, I don't see the point of putting myself through that for $50/hr. The AE flowthroughs aren't restricted to a lifetime of reserve, if and when they ever come back. In fact, if we are ever all called back, I will have dozens of AE flowthroughs senior to me.

Again, please, I am NOT trying to start a flame contest, I only want to know why should AA flowbacks be "afraid"?

Hag

 

[F-eagle]

Personally speaking, I am not pissed about AA pilots flowing back, I am pissed about the AA pilots trying to renegotiate the contract behind our backs. The AA pilots were preaching unity, one airline, one list, and having that unity march, while at the same time renegotiating letter 3 behind Eagle pilots backs. What they did was wrong, and that is why we won the arbitration. I simply can't just forgive and forget, not that easily.

 

[Hagar17]

Personally speaking, I am not pissed about AA pilots flowing back, I am pissed about the AA pilots trying to renegotiate the contract behind our backs. The AA pilots were preaching unity, one airline, one list, and having that unity march, while at the same time renegotiating letter 3 behind Eagle pilots backs. What they did was wrong, and that is why we won the arbitration. I simply can't just forgive and forget, not that easily.

F-Eagle:

As a soon-to-be-former AA guy, I am ashamed of the way APA tried to re-negotiate the terms of the flow-back agreement. It was a sh!tty thing to do, and I am truly sorry, FWIW. It seems the pilot mentality is and has always been "get mine."

I feel, however, there are guys like that on both sides of the AA/AE equation.

It is also wrong for AE's MEC to step up and write a letter to Arpey "volunteering" to fly 100 seat jets. I understand this was probably retribution for APA trying to change the flowback agreement, but it was wrong nonetheless. Trying to take jobs from other pilots is wrong, no matter how it is packaged or disguised.

I have known many pilots that work for Eagle. We used to fill up the back of the F100 with Eagle guys commuting from RDU to BOS or LGA when I worked for Midway. Several pilots I flew with at Midway came from Eagle. Some of those same guys are back with Eagle. They no different than some of the AA pilots that think they are superior to them. They are hard-working guys with people that depend on them, just like any other pilots in the industry. The common thread is we both work for a despicable corporation, AMR, that will lie to no end to prey on the fears of both of our pilot groups, working the two groups against each other to further their agenda.

What we need to do is form one seniority list, though I doubt with the maniacs on BOTH sides, it'll never work.

Hag

 

[F-eagle]

We agree.

 

[jetexas]

Well put Hagar.

 

[Hagar17]

We agree.

Good. Then take it easy on the flowbacks.

Hag

 

[amcnd]

I like flying with them. Dont get me wrong but when it comes time for our 4hr sit there no were to be found. I dont think that they even pulled the paper work up in the lounge. This Is not a good thing. Its hard on everyone. Its not that there is hostility that they are flowing back. I think it's what your union tried to do.(take all vacancies from us with out our consent. that has peope felling bitter.) Its not the pilot group, its managment, AX, union..ect . that has got us on edge. Sorry if I sounded they way you took it...

 

[eaglefly]

Hagar, I'm curious about your reasoning for the statement that "Eagle flow-thru's didn't EARN their position at AA".

Just what does it mean to "earn" your position at AA ?

We all know the airline interview is in many ways about correctly playing the "game".

Many quality individuals are rejected by one and accepted by another.

Many idiots and morons slip through.

Some of them flip off the authorities of foreign contries.

Some of them, "depart reality" enroute and launch into cruise flight preaching.

I would be interested to hear your argumant why all flowthrough AE pilots are unworthy of their jobs at AA because they were not "earned". Admittedly, many didn't have the luxury of having their app smoked in to HR by a squadron buddy.

You must also realize that BEFORE the Eagle ALPA MEC made any proposals regarding larger jets, the APA board represented to the Eagle MEC, the Eagle pilots and the general public, that theirs and the Eagle MEC's (and pilots) desires were cohesive and parallel.

Score a knife in the back to the Eagle pilots.

Guess who's fingerprints were on the knife ?

In any case, I would be interested to hear your argument regarding the lack of qualifications and inappropraite presence of Eagle flow-thru captains on the AA list.

Over the years, I've NEVER heard ANY similar references from Continental pilots about how Continental Express pilots did not "EARN" their positions at Continental Mainline.

Only from AA pilots, about Eagle pilots - and this type of attitude has been conveyed for YEARS (F. Lee Bailey ring a bell ?).

Maybe, the "hostility" you're concerned about was actually a byproduct cultivated by (dare I say it), your own Union and many of your fellow pilots ?

 

[Darby]

I am a flowback from AA to Eagle. I have not once experienced any animosity from anyone at Eagle. Don't worry about the training. The training was very good and everybody treated me fairly. You can't go through training though without putting in a lot of effort. You will work every single day on reserve. I have not met anybody who has had a day where they did not get called to work while on reserve. They work you hard. If you don't want to commute from DFW then only bid DFW. If you don't get it, go to SWA. Being home every night is HUGE! I'd pay a lot of $ to be home every night. If you do come to Eagle I'll be glad to be senior to you. Being on the bottom is not the place to be.