Southwest Sim Instructor v. Flushback

[C77MD80]

As a soon-to-be-former AA guy, I am ashamed of the way APA tried to re-negotiate the terms of the flow-back agreement. It was a sh!tty thing to do, and I am truly sorry, FWIW. It seems the pilot mentality is and has always been "get mine."

This is why AA Flushback should go to SWA and enjoy a good quality of life by being home every night and working for an outfit that appreciates him and the professional qualities that he has to offer.

Flushback, I see your point in that you want the opportunity now or at least prior to the next 3 years but picture this scenario. You stay at SWA for the next 3 years as an instructor. You've just been furloughed in 04 and won't see a recall until AT THE VERY LEAST one year from this March. If the APA has something to gain and gives away the store on 70 seat RJ's it won't likely be for 2-3 years anyhow. Three short years later (enjoying a wonderful non-hostile environment) SWA invites you for an interview and notices your commitment to SWA and the fact the you chose to stay as an instructor with the company you wish to work for. You’re a shoe in. How many seniority numbers did you loose if you had the opportunity now? 300 per year? 900 total? If in three years you don’t like how your cards play at SWA then take the number at AA. You’ll never have to deal with the attitudes of the eagle pilots (justifiable or not since they do seem to raise some valid points….I wish you guys would all get along, you could battle your unfriendly management group much easier)


Hagar and Eaglefly,
Somehow ya’ll have to get together on this issue or AMR management is going to keep whipsawing your AAsses all over the place. You both have valid points. One seniority list would solve a lot of issues. APA would have to bend a lot on that one! In the long run you would probably raise the bar significantly for eagle pay (which you should). Would AMR go for that, probably not in a million years! Good Luck

 

[Hagar17]

Hagar, I'm curious about your reasoning for the statement that "Eagle flow-thru's didn't EARN their position at AA".

Just what does it mean to "earn" your position at AA ?

We all know the airline interview is in many ways about correctly playing the "game".

Many quality individuals are rejected by one and accepted by another.

Many idiots and morons slip through.

Some of them flip off the authorities of foreign contries.

Some of them, "depart reality" enroute and launch into cruise flight preaching.

I would be interested to hear your argumant why all flowthrough AE pilots are unworthy of their jobs at AA because they were not "earned". Admittedly, many didn't have the luxury of having their app smoked in to HR by a squadron buddy.

You must also realize that BEFORE the Eagle ALPA MEC made any proposals regarding larger jets, the APA board represented to the Eagle MEC, the Eagle pilots and the general public, that theirs and the Eagle MEC's (and pilots) desires were cohesive and parallel.

Score a knife in the back to the Eagle pilots.

Guess who's fingerprints were on the knife ?

In any case, I would be interested to hear your argument regarding the lack of qualifications and inappropraite presence of Eagle flow-thru captains on the AA list.

Over the years, I've NEVER heard ANY similar references from Continental pilots about how Continental Express pilots did not "EARN" their positions at Continental Mainline.

Only from AA pilots, about Eagle pilots - and this type of attitude has been conveyed for YEARS (F. Lee Bailey ring a bell ?).

Maybe, the "hostility" you're concerned about was actually a byproduct cultivated by (dare I say it), your own Union and many of your fellow pilots ?

Eaglefly:

Stop.

I DID NOT say that AE flowthroughs didn't earn their positions at AA. This is what I said:

"The AE flowthroughs didn't "earn" their place at AA anymore than the AA flowbacks are "entitled" to their captain's seat at AE."

See the difference? Nobody earns or is entitled to anything in this buisness. It's all what you negotiate. AE pilots and ALPA negotiated the right to flow through to AA. AA pilots and APA negotiated the right to flow back to AE captain slots. It's as simple as that.

Next:

"I would be interested to hear your argumant why all flowthrough AE pilots are unworthy of their jobs at AA because they were not "earned". Admittedly, many didn't have the luxury of having their app smoked in to HR by a squadron buddy."

I never said flowthrough AE pilots are "unworthy" of their jobs. Check the text, dude, you're putting words in my mouth. I had 2 Eagle (non-flowthrough) guys in my class at AA. Apparently, they didn't have their app "smoked into HR by a squadron buddy" as they are all-civilian pilots and good friends of mine as well. Your argument rings hollow as someone who didn't get hired at AA and is bitter. Why the frig would you want to work for AA? You'd be on the street right now.

Next:

"In any case, I would be interested to hear your argument regarding the lack of qualifications and inappropraite presence of Eagle flow-thru captains on the AA list."

Again, where did I say this? A former AE RJ captain is obviously qualified to be an FO at AA. A pilot with the qualifications to be hired at AA should have the ability to be an RJ captain at AE. The 3000 hr thing is a sham, because anyone at AA with less than 3000 is probably a single seat fighter guy. That was just a roadblock AE, AMR, and ALPA threw up for the flowbacks.

Last:

"Maybe, the "hostility" you're concerned about was actually a byproduct cultivated by (dare I say it), your own Union and many of your fellow pilots ?"

You're 100% correct here. My union tried to steal from you, just like AE steals our flying every day. It sucks, I hate it, and it makes me ashamed to be a member of the APA. How do we fix it? One seniority list. Will it ever happen? No.

I think I'm as open-minded and level-headed about the flowthrough/flowback issue as anyone out there. Just don't attribute things other idiots have said to me.

Hag

 

[Cleared Direct]

A pilot with the qualifications to be hired at AA should have the ability to be an RJ captain at AE. The 3000 hr thing is a sham, because anyone at AA with less than 3000 is probably a single seat fighter guy. That was just a roadblock AE, AMR, and ALPA threw up for the flowbacks.
Hag

Hag,

The whole flow-through flow-back thing is a scam, but the 3000 hr thing was not. The 3000-hour requirement was established well before any actual possibility of a flow back occurred. This was set earlier and put in the FAA approved Eagle FM-1. When AMR first attempted to change it to appease the APA, the Feds attached to Eagles CMO said no. Then they asked if they could sit in the right seat until they had 3000 hours, and ALPA said take a hike. Now after renegotiations with APA and enough pressure on the Feds, they actually agreed to drop the 3000-hour requirement. This is not retroactive; it only applies to the indentified flow-backs after the agreement.

Your statement about the qualifications of a pilot hired at AA is ridiculous and without fact. AA's pilot requirements were commensurate with experience. That is it. Many other airlines including Eagle have actual published minimum flight time requirements unlike AA. You obviously are not aware that 4 of the initially identified flowbacks during the first flow back event did not even have the minimum 1500 hours to qualify for an ATP. I guess they are somehow qualified to be an Eagle RJ pilot in your eyes? Yea, the APA has a special way to circumvent the absolute minimum requirements for an ATP to become an Eagle RJ Captain because they negotiated it.

Don't get me wrong; what a union negotiates is everything. However, you can't negotiate changes in FAR's to give your group a loophole. When ALPA tried to explain to APA that the flow-through was not being applied correctly, it fell on deaf ears. Now that AMR plays the same games in trying to reduce the costs involved with the flow-back, APA says that is not fair.

Instead of APA working with ALPA to have Supplement W/ Letter 3 applied properly both ways, APA chose to be the selfish kid that they are. As a result, AMR has tried to screw both sides. Now a mediator will decide the outcome of all that is contested in Supp W/ Letter 3.

Most of your posts are level headed and in my opinion pretty much on the mark, but this particular comment of yours shows your true APAish side.

 

[Hagar17]

Hag,

The whole flow-through flow-back thing is a scam, but the 3000 hr thing was not. The 3000-hour requirement was established well before any actual possibility of a flow back occurred. This was set earlier and put in the FAA approved Eagle FM-1. When AMR first attempted to change it to appease the APA, the Feds attached to Eagles CMO said no. Then they asked if they could sit in the right seat until they had 3000 hours, and ALPA said take a hike. Now after renegotiations with APA and enough pressure on the Feds, they actually agreed to drop the 3000-hour requirement. This is not retroactive; it only applies to the indentified flow-backs after the agreement.

Your statement about the qualifications of a pilot hired at AA is ridiculous and without fact. AA's pilot requirements were commensurate with experience. That is it. Many other airlines including Eagle have actual published minimum flight time requirements unlike AA. You obviously are not aware that 4 of the initially identified flowbacks during the first flow back event did not even have the minimum 1500 hours to qualify for an ATP. I guess they are somehow qualified to be an Eagle RJ pilot in your eyes? Yea, the APA has a special way to circumvent the absolute minimum requirements for an ATP to become an Eagle RJ Captain because they negotiated it.

Don't get me wrong; what a union negotiates is everything. However, you can't negotiate changes in FAR's to give your group a loophole. When ALPA tried to explain to APA that the flow-through was not being applied correctly, it fell on deaf ears. Now that AMR plays the same games in trying to reduce the costs involved with the flow-back, APA says that is not fair.

Instead of APA working with ALPA to have Supplement W/ Letter 3 applied properly both ways, APA chose to be the selfish kid that they are. As a result, AMR has tried to screw both sides. Now a mediator will decide the outcome of all that is contested in Supp W/ Letter 3.

Most of your posts are level headed and in my opinion pretty much on the mark, but this particular comment of yours shows your true APAish side.

Many other airlines including Eagle have actual published minimum flight time requirements unlike AA.

Like 500 total/100 ME with a letter from the Dean at your pilot college?

C'mon, man. There may have been some Cecilites hired with low time because their daddy is an AA captain, but 500 hrs????

The sword cuts both ways. I do appreciate, however, the background on the 3000 hr requirement. I didn't realize that was the reason.

Hag

 

[viking737]

AA flushback.
Did you apply to SWA as sim instructor only , or did you
apply for a pilot position?
I would guess if you really wanted to work for SW, you would probably get hired as a pilot within three years anyway, and then you could skip the sim-instructor gig altogether.
I assume they would't give you a seniority number based on
your date of hire in the sim, so you would probably have
several hundred guys ahead of you that you were giving simulator training to!!

 

[Maynard]

ex swa sim dude

Having been there, here are the pro's...
1. Home every night.
2. Great bunch to work with.
3. Pay is around 75 a year once qualified (takes three months)
4. No one has been denied a line job ( after three years)
5. Same benefits as a line job.
6. The only thing that you don't take to the line is seniority, so try the pilot interview first (keep vacation accrual, stock options, profit sharing, etc. from day one...)
7. VERY flexible schedule.

Here are the con's...
1. Sorry, can't think of any.

 

[Maynard]

back to the original question...

BTW, you don't have a 50/50 chance on your first pilot interview, 1 out of 12 get in the first time...Just to let you know.

 

[B-atch]

Take the Jungle Jet type and build the PIC time. It has become industry standard to require at least 1000 turbine PIC. In the future the standards are only going to get tougher. If you can get jet type and time on it gooo for it...... Thats just my humble oppinion.

 

[Hagar17]

AA_Flushback:

I saw this old thread and I gotta wonder:

What did you end up doing?

Hagar17
Another Former AA Flyer

 

[Phaedrus]

Maynard:
While "1/2" is a bit optimistic, "1/12" is a bit pessimistic. There is no way to know how a single interviewee will fair on the probabilities. The only way to get a decent feel would be to look at least a year or so back to get an average. I'd say around 20-40% would be accurate over the last year depending on what was going on at the company when one's DB meets.

 

[flyingitalian]

If you ever want to work at swa i would take the sim job. swa is not big on people who had an opportunity to work for them and turned it down. its a lot to overcome in a future interview.

 

[J3CubCapt]

AA_FlushBack

I see this topic has suffered from Thread Creep.

To get back to your question, I was a Capt. for Midway airlines and I was applying for SWA until 9/11. I was made aware of the SWA IP opportunity and made the desision to take the 3 year commitment. I have just recently transitioned to line.

The IP position is a very nice job, great support from those in the training dept. A wonderful opportunity to meet all of the "right people", Dir. of Training, Chief Pilots, etc.

There is a 3 year obligation, but the time goes by fast. You will have to pass the complete interview process. We have had a 70% pass rate for the IP's.

The time spent in the TC makes the line training a breeze, I have to admit though, getting back in the "Saddle" after a few years off has been a bit of work, it's coming back but a little rusty. Everyone on the line has been very supportive and helpful.

With the planned growth over the next few years we need more qualified IP's, although the turnover in the TC is a concern. If you know of anyone who may have long term thoughts of working in the TC please have them make contact.

I hope this information helps you make your decision, I'm not sure if you are fully aware how different and wonderful this company is. It's worth it!

J3

 

[Cheeze]

J3CubCapt

Do you have contact info to share? If not public then please PM me.

Thank you

Cheeze

 

[BoilerUP]

What are the requirements to be a sim instructor for Southwest? Are they the same as for a regular newhire? I didn't see any posting on southwest.com

Very interested in a training career, PM if necessary, thanks for the info

 

[J3CubCapt]

I'm not sure is the are any "SET" requirements. Previous 73 time is perfered, but not reguired. It is very competitive, and there is a number of retiring SWA Line Pilots applying. There is no posting because SWA is currently hiring from within, but with this position the company often has to look outside. I will check and see if I can get the scoop. There are a small muber of people in a pool for the TC at this time, but there are possible needs of the horizion with the 9 month training cycle and any other large scale training reguirments that may arise.

J3

 

[T-prop]

Like 500 total/100 ME with a letter from the Dean at your pilot college?

C'mon, man. There may have been some Cecilites hired with low time because their daddy is an AA captain, but 500 hrs????

The sword cuts both ways. I do appreciate, however, the background on the 3000 hr requirement. I didn't realize that was the reason.

Hag

Competitive time for an eagle interview is 1200 ttl 200 multi. There are a few (8-9/year) that are hired with 600/100 but they went to Riddle or UND and got an internship at the Eagle training dept. 1 year ago 2000/500 was competitive.

Minimum times dropped recently to 1000/100 because no one in their right mind wants to come here (flowbacks= 9+year upgrade). Eagle will be scraping the bottom of the barrel shortly. I applied to eagle only because they were hiring and took the job because they were gave me a class date before any other company did. I shoulda been a whore and flown a 1900 for $15/hr so I'd get the "almighty" 1000 T-PIC in less than 11 years.

The fact is, the flow-through only put 150+ eagle guys at AA if there was room for them. Now APA is shoving 500+ Flushbacks down AE's throat and displacing 5 year CA's that have been with the company for 7+years.

Put yourself in one of the displaced CA's shoes. They are being forced to take a 40% paycut and sit next to a person that took their seat. And that person may have never logged turbine PIC before they were hired at AA.

It doesn't matter how you cut it, there will be bitter feelings. Flushbacks are not wanted at AE but they shouldn't fear it either, most Eagle guys are professional about it, however there are a few that will be openly hostile if the subject is brought up.

Personally, I am not and have no right be sore at the flowback situation, I can't upgrade for at least another 2 years anyway, I/we hope by then the flowbacks all have their AA jobs back. As you can tell most of my knowledge comes from over 400 hrs of listening to displaced jet capt's that are flying the ATR until they get displaced to FO again. Hopefully, I've helped explain the other side of the story.

Take the SWA job if you don't have to resign AA recall rights. You'll be home every night and won't have to work in a hostile work environment.

P.S.

There are a lot of T-prop captains who are thankful that APA thought their pilots are too good to flushback to the left seat of the mighty Saab or ATR, too many gosh darn levers and such.

 

[FlyinHigh737]

Like J3cub, I second the opportunity to go to the Training Department at SWA. You will learn from the from the best, with regards to B737 training, you will learn the FOM and have a head start for your transition to the line. You will meet outstanding pilots (from FO's to Check airmen) that will help you every step of the way, and never forget every oustanding employee at SWA. The time does go fast, but most important you will be home every night with your family (if applicable), if you have kids this is an opportunity to watch your kids grow up. And then, go to work for an OUTSTANDING pilot group.

Good Luck