Southwest Pilots!

[Capn Butthead]

ON pms, all of the captains will by you beers as long as you get "initiated" for being on probation. Been there over a year and a half and still on "probation". Nothing beets seeing two hills over nebraska at nights!

 

[TrumanSparks]

Hey, I've seen those hills, the size changes but they are always worth looking at.

PMs RULE!

 

[sclark161]

The midwest is still flat from my seat, but pm's start next month so I'm expecting some topography.

 

[SWAdude]

Unfortunately, not always. Spent $3 of my own money a couple of times. They make $3 a minute and cant hook a probie up. Life aint fair!!

Maybe they felt the expectation and thought it not worth the money.

Three bucks spends just as well for everyone no matter how much you earn.

When I was on probation I never expected to have my beer bought for me. When it was, I was really appreciative. But quite frankly I never felt that it was a requirement and often times bought the beer for everyone else.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Unfortunately, not always. Spent $3 of my own money a couple of times. They make $3 a minute and cant hook a probie up. Life aint fair!!

There is nothing more discouraging than knowing a "probie" is expecting his beer to be paid. Its a tradition. Not a requirement.

I as well as most all Captains always buy the beer for a probation pilot. But you can tell when they expect you to buy and it shows the selfishness of the individual. Just a few I'm talking about.

One overnight I went to buy the beer for the probation FO of another crew and he insisted on buying mine. He said " In my life I have had many beers bought for me because I was always on the poverty level. Now that I'm earning this much money, I intend on paying forward."

What a great attitude. I bought the next round.

 

[sfomarc]

Someone needs to go back and take physics over.

Why dont you call the training department and let them know since its in the FOM

 

[SIG600]

Desent planning!

Says the guy with 180TT.

 

[Headfake14]

hmmm...why would you see more of the "hills" during PMs as opposed to AMs?

 

[radarlove]

Why dont you call the training department and let them know since its in the FOM

I don't have a copy of your company's FOM, but I would bet dollars that there is nothing in any approved flight manual that states a "maximum" decent rate to put out flaps--the flaps don't know if you're descending or upside-down, they only know load, and that load comes from airspeed and angle of attack.

Why don't you cut and paste the part of your manual that goes against the laws of physics, so we can all be on the same page?

 

[GuppyWN]

Radar....... quit whilst you're behind. I'm too lazy to go look it up be there sure is/was a "normally" no more than 500fpm while extending flaps in our FOM. Wasn't cold hard law but a recommendation.

Gup

 

[SWA/FO]

no more than 500fpm while extending flaps in our FOM

its not in there anymore. was always BS anyway.

 

[radarlove]

its not in there anymore. was always BS anyway.

No, no, he's just "too lazy" to go find it.

 

[RedBelly]

its not in there anymore. was always BS anyway.

Not B.S... The technique is to keep guys from using the flaps as a speedbrake. If you lower the flaps, slow to the manuevering speed for that setting. If you are descending, the idea is to descend at no more than 500 fpm until you reach that speed... at that point, you can descend at whatever rate you like.

Of couse, that only works in a perfect world, but it is a good target to aim for.

 

[RJones]

no more than 500fpm while extending flaps in our FOM

Yeah, got my a$$ chewed by a check airman for doing it and now it's gone... WTF?

 

[radarlove]

Not B.S... The technique is to keep guys from using the flaps as a speedbrake. If you lower the flaps, slow to the manuevering speed for that setting. If you are descending, the idea is to descend at no more than 500 fpm until you reach that speed... at that point, you can descend at whatever rate you like.

Of couse, that only works in a perfect world, but it is a good target to aim for.

Ok...back to that making no sense at all...

What does descent rate have to do with anything? Uh...nothing? Why would descending at no more than 500 fpm make a difference with flap speed?

Well, the answer is: nothing. But thanks for playing.

It's funny, I was right without ever even seeing your manual.

 

[SWA/FO]

its BS. Using the flaps to slow, who cares, thats what they are for. We don't live in a perfect world. As long as your below Boeings speeds, your fine.

Next time a check airman talks BS, make him show you in the book. To many Captain's liv'in in the past. Open the book every once in awhile.

 

[knelson]

Call for them and when they say no or not yet... reply "Ok then you set flaps to 5 when you want to." Or "IF I try to fly the airplane like you want me to, it will just f-me up so it might be better if you just give me flaps 5, now"

That's exactly what I try to say, but being on probation it usually comes out something like this. . . . "yes sir".

 

[RJones]

If the flap speed for the particular flap setting desired is obtained then regardless of the decent rate selection of that setting is OK. Flap selection speed is a structural design limit and shouldn't be exceeded, it is not a function of decent rate and if it is could someone point that out to me?

I actually took on this check airman about this issue and his only defense was it was in the book. I looked it up and indeed he was correct and I simply had to drop it. Now that it has changed I wonder if he still rants about it to others.

RJ

 

[mdf]

Ok...back to that making no sense at all...

What does descent rate have to do with anything? Uh...nothing? Why would descending at no more than 500 fpm make a difference with flap speed?

Well, the answer is: nothing. But thanks for playing.

It's funny, I was right without ever even seeing your manual.

Wow, thats really impressive. You must be some kind of aerodynamacyst.

 

[RJones]

Wow, thats really impressive. You must be some kind of aerodynamacyst.

He is an Aerodynamicist... but an "aerodynamacyst" he is not. And it should be 'that is' instead of "thats." Sure you didn't mess your logbook up to get that alleged 6k?

 

[RedBelly]

Ok...back to that making no sense at all...

What does descent rate have to do with anything? Uh...nothing? Why would descending at no more than 500 fpm make a difference with flap speed?

Well, the answer is: nothing. But thanks for playing.

It's funny, I was right without ever even seeing your manual.

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

 

[Britpilot]

From then on it feels like i'm constanly doing higher math and figuring when to start dirtying up. I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?"

Ahh, what you need is the Boeing flap speed calculator/whizwheel/cheat sheet.
Available at your company store and customizable by the Captain you happen to be flying with at the time.
I went through the same stuff, never knew when to put out the flaps/gear/speed brake when flying with some guys. I do use the gear/brake combo when you need to get down in a hurry (got it from a former US Air guy) gives the most drag so highest rate of descent
.
So, howya doing Scotty?

 

[radarlove]

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

Missed on the "simple" part, but hit on the "wrong" part.

Re the flaps: you are either at, or above flap maneuvering speed, regardless of descent rate.

Remember your very first ground school, where they talked about angle-of-attack? And how it doesn't matter what direction the wing is headed, just where the relative wind was coming from?

Same with flaps. The only thing stressing them is load, and the load comes from airspeed. The flaps don't know if you're light and barely descending, heavy and descending with powerd--the fpm is meaningless.

Airspeed is not.

Back to your regularly scheduled physics lesson...

 

[mdf]

He is an Aerodynamicist... but an "aerodynamacyst" he is not. And it should be 'that is' instead of "thats." Sure you didn't mess your logbook up to get that alleged 6k?

Just messing around Rico. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. 12,200 flight hours in all those different airplanes. Now "that is" impressive.

 

[RJones]

Hey, it's all good.:beer:

 

[RedBelly]

Missed on the "simple" part, but hit on the "wrong" part.

Re the flaps: you are either at, or above flap maneuvering speed, regardless of descent rate.

Remember your very first ground school, where they talked about angle-of-attack? And how it doesn't matter what direction the wing is headed, just where the relative wind was coming from?

Same with flaps. The only thing stressing them is load, and the load comes from airspeed. The flaps don't know if you're light and barely descending, heavy and descending with powerd--the fpm is meaningless.

Airspeed is not.

Back to your regularly scheduled physics lesson...

Ok...so you agree that Airspeed is meaningful in terms of load on the flap mechanism.

How then, can you not see that a technique to reduce airspeed quickly after flap extension helps to reduce the load on the flaps?

The idea is not to descend with power on at 500 fpm... the idea is to reduce the airspeed as quickly as possible.

 

[RedBelly]

its BS. Using the flaps to slow, who cares, thats what they are for. We don't live in a perfect world. As long as your below Boeings speeds, your fine.

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

 

[qratez]

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

Flaps increase lift...a by-product of lift is drag....therefore by extending flaps you increase lift which will allow you to fly slower and at the same time increasing drag which will slow you down....now im confused...

 

[ivauir]

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

But descent rate rate and speed are not the same (related yes, but not the same) If I am at the manuever speed, wings level and decending at a constant rate (therefore 1g) when we move the flaps then I am putting he least stress possible on the airplane. What that descent rate is doesn't matter. The descent rate only affects how quickly I'll slow down, outside of ATC constraints I like to slow down gradually, follow the glidepath, and configure on speed.

I understand what you are saying, and I do just what you describe when ATC constraints force my hand, but it isn't the only way to fly the plane.

That's exactly what I try to say, but being on probation it usually comes out something like this. . . . "yes sir".

Dude, being on probabtion has nothing to do with it. Just be respectful about it, but you are paid to keep the Capt from farking up. You can't do that if you are afraid of your own shadow. If you start taking their word for it soon you too will be flying using procedures from 4 revisions ago. If it doesn't make sense talk about it. Look it up. Ask a check airman. Heck, use your FNG status and say "Really? I must have missed that. Thanks for pointing it out." Then pull out the book and look for it. Even if you know it isn't there. Almost all of the Captains will tolerate and even appreciate your efforts. The ones that don't are known to the pwers that be. A negative probie report from them should be worn like a badge of honor.

It is not your job to please your Captain. (That sounds bad - sickos). It is your job to help the Captain operate your pairing in accordance with SWA policy and procedures. If you finish a trip and never make a callout or question a course of action then you are no more than a talking checklist and yoke actuator. For all practical purposes your captain is solo.

 

[SWA/FO]

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

As long as you don't leave the thrust levers full forward, flaps slow you down. Some calll it "DRAG".

being on probabtion has nothing to do with it

has a lot to do with it.