Southwest Pilots!

[Donald]

I had a captain drop the gear at 12,000 ft once. Going into ONT from the north. We were held high due to traffic. It was either that or enjoy some 360s. Gear + speed brakes (no flaps) makes great drag.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

I had a captain drop the gear at 12,000 ft once. Going into ONT from the north. We were held high due to traffic. It was either that or enjoy some 360s. Gear + speed brakes (no flaps) makes great drag.

I was about to bring up ONT. As a commuter going into there, I got to see some interesting stuff riding jumpseats. Now, I have the pleasure of operating into there myself. Cross HITOP at 13,000 and watch the antics begin...

 

[GuppyWN]

Antics? It's called flying the jet. The company took all of our options away with the speedbrake restrictions. Now if you press the field you dump the gear.

250 on the g/s clean to 12nm. Dump the gear and get a dot ahead of the g/s and life is good.

Gup

 

[flatspin7]

I had to drop the gear witha clean wing going into ATL the other day in a 737 (yes I was the pilot..just avoiding wise arses).. They kept us high and fast and turned us on the Loc and Slope while they still wanted us to maintain 250 until told to slow... The speedbrakes were cutting it so down go the rollers. Flaps 1-2 speed in the 737-classics is 230. The NGs are 250 but company limits it down to avoid confusion.

Just a note to people whom have never thrown a jet... Purdy little sim profiles only work when ATC is nice enough to give you speed at your own descretion and leave you level for a few miles before you hit the glide slope. After that you just have to do everything you can with the limitations on the aircraft to get that bad boy slowed down.

The 737 requires much more planning to get slowed down then the ERJ... In the 145-XR you can almost do 250 to the marker and be stable by 1000 feet. The 737 you really don't like more than 180-190 to the marker and in the -800 really need to have flaps 10 out there to maintain 180 on the Loc, any less than that the airplane will just accelerate.

 

[leenick]

I believe it's all about the man and the machine. If your green and behind the power curve, then you might want to slow it down early. There are others who have been flying for years, and they may smoke it in at 220kts to the FAF before doing anything. So, it's all about experience and limitations on the A/C.

 

[flatspin7]

Its also about being stable at 1000 feet.

 

[Hpilot]

We do it too

In defense of Southwest pilots. The 737 clean doesn't slow and descend well at the same time. Often times coming into Vegas from the west ATC will have you fast and decide to turn you in on a tight base for 25L. Automatic response, "gear down". When we have guys come off the 320 or 757 and upgrade into the 737 they're always high at first and you have to say politely, "you may want to put the gear down boss"

 

[ils2minimums]

I regularly use the gear to slow to a reasonable flap extension speed. Generally it's when we're number one for the airport on a visual approach and we're on a long final. I like to hit somewhere around 8-10 miles out at 3000-2500 feet and 250 knots. Put the gear down, and within a few seconds I'm ready to start gettin' the flaps out. It's kinda noisy at for a little while, but the time saved is worth it. If ATC and the situation permits, I'm able to plan my descent so that the throttles are often at idle from 10,000 feet to about 1000 feet, thus saving gas too. I generally brief the captain about my intentions so that they aren't reaching for the flap handle to give me the "hint" to slow down.

So far we haven't been banned from using the spoilers with flaps on our 737's... The MD-80's though, are another story. In the winter you really have to plan to get down if you have your anti-ice stuff on. You can't pull the power to idle because you have to keep the power up to provide enough heat. Several times going into ORD in the winter time, you're held high, then told to descend and slow! I've seen more than one guy get pretty creative to get down.

 

[GuppyWN]

Its also about being stable at 1000 feet.

That's funny. My FOM says something like "stableISH" at a grand.

Gup

 

[johnnyV]

In defense of Southwest pilots. "

What defense? It is just getting the job done...safely & effectively!

 

[TurboS7]

Just plan 25 mile finals and you never have to worry about all that stuff.

 

[sfomarc]

try this the next time you are high in ONT in a -700 or -800. Only extend flaps on MASI speed, no higher, intial descent rate on extending flaps not to exceed 500fpm, once flaps are 1 or greater no use of speedbrake, at 1000 feet AGL be on speed and on GS, and be powered up by 500 feet AGL. Use gear when and how you need it.

Good luck

 

[radarlove]

intial descent rate on extending flaps not to exceed 500fpm

Someone needs to go back and take physics over.

 

[radarlove]

intial descent rate on extending flaps not to exceed 500fpm

Someone needs to go back and take physics again.

 

[BeachBummer]

Hahaha...I was being rather sardonic in nature with that post. You know tongue in cheek. I'm hardly an A.Net kid or "instructordude". And definately not here to pretend to know it all or tell professional airline pilots how to do their job. I'm here to learn and soak up knowledge.

I might be a new breed here!

i think that i might be dumber for being here.... there isn't alot of "knowledge soaking".... most of the time

 

[sclark161]

Being new at wn with less than 200 hrs on the 73, i'm finding it a little frustrating at times with the decent planning close the the field. 30+ miles out...no problem. From then on it feels like i'm constanly doing higher math and figuring when to start dirtying up. I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?" I tend to play it conservatively and get dirty and slow a bit early, but I still feel like i'm asking for gear and flaps half the time in the form of a question vs. a command. It'll come, but the learning curve's higher than I expected, expecially in the -700. Every trip get's easier and easier though. I think half the problem is, is that I have way too much gouge from captains i've flown with. My simple brain gets tangled up while cyphering through the mountains of gouge and flying the plane at the same time.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?" I tend to play it conservatively and get dirty and slow a bit early, but I still feel like i'm asking for gear and flaps half the time in the form of a question vs. a command.

Call for them and when they say no or not yet... reply "Ok then you set flaps to 5 when you want to." Or "IF I try to fly the airplane like you want me to, it will just f-me up so it might be better if you just give me flaps 5, now"

 

[runwayjockey]

Being new at wn with less than 200 hrs on the 73, i'm finding it a little frustrating at times with the decent planning close the the field. 30+ miles out...no problem. From then on it feels like i'm constanly doing higher math and figuring when to start dirtying up. I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?" I tend to play it conservatively and get dirty and slow a bit early, but I still feel like i'm asking for gear and flaps half the time in the form of a question vs. a command. It'll come, but the learning curve's higher than I expected, expecially in the -700. Every trip get's easier and easier though. I think half the problem is, is that I have way too much gouge from captains i've flown with. My simple brain gets tangled up while cyphering through the mountains of gouge and flying the plane at the same time.

One of the many joys of sitting right seat! It gets better my friend!

 

[ivauir]

Being new at wn with less than 200 hrs on the 73, i'm finding it a little frustrating at times with the decent planning close the the field. 30+ miles out...no problem. From then on it feels like i'm constanly doing higher math and figuring when to start dirtying up. I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?" I tend to play it conservatively and get dirty and slow a bit early, but I still feel like i'm asking for gear and flaps half the time in the form of a question vs. a command. It'll come, but the learning curve's higher than I expected, expecially in the -700. Every trip get's easier and easier though. I think half the problem is, is that I have way too much gouge from captains i've flown with. My simple brain gets tangled up while cyphering through the mountains of gouge and flying the plane at the same time.

I know how you feel - I went throungh the darn thing. Something that helped me was to make "targets" in advance .... my intital decent point, where I want to be at 18000, where I want to be at 10000, etc. Then I use the "fix" page to mark them with rings (obviously in a 700). A couple of legs like this and you can at least narrow down where your problem is.

BTW I still use this technique for airports without DME or if I don't go there much.

And I know - just one more technique for a guy with too much gouge, but here is another - make a plan (in yourt head) for what you think the Captain will do. Then if he is consistantly doing something different, ask him why. Even if I don't adapt another dudes technique, understanding it make me a better pilot.

Good luck and don't sweat it, you've mastered a lot of things that are tougher than this ...

 

[sclark161]

All of my bitching aside, i've had an absolute blast during my 2 months on line, and i've only done am's. The cpt's i've flown with have been more than willing to help me out and the atmosphere here is unlike any other airline i've dealt with.