Southwest announces potential flights from Love Field in gate fight

[scoreboardII]

Give it up Wave, he's been "re-educated" into believing what they told him, that SWA is the reason for all his problems.

 

[Flopgut]

Give it up Wave, he's been "re-educated" into believing what they told him, that SWA is the reason for all his problems.

I'm about as problem free as a person gets dude. I'm not even angry or pissed off. I have a difference of opinion on how your airline became successful. That's all. If you want to observe actual "lunatic" behavior, might take a close look at how you guys react to anyone with less than fanatical love for your airline. You guys are way out there.

 

[Flopgut]

Can't argue with crazy.

If what was needed was only flights out of Dfw - then why have we been so successful out of Love?

Maybe both fill the needs and wants of the market?

Does the same apply in your neighborhood? No local stores bc there was a huge mall built 30 miles away?

DFW is a different deal than IAH. The govt conned two cities into one regional airport, then Dallas kept their downtown airport open. It allows you to drink upstream from the larger side of the region. Should have never happened like that.

Bubba correctly pointed out that Legend got buried by American, and a large legal battle was part of it. But Bubba fails to also mention that American flew airplanes in direct competition with them as well, and that the City of Ft Worth also sued Legend. FTW has always been pissed about this, and always will be. Legend was smited from existence in a very obvious and brutal way so that you guys knew what would have been done to SWA. They were sending a message.

 

[bluesideup1]

Can't argue with crazy.

If what was needed was only flights out of Dfw - then why have we been so successful out of Love?

Maybe both fill the needs and wants of the market?

Does the same apply in your neighborhood? No local stores bc there was a huge mall built 30 miles away?

Yet you continue to try and even worse re post his stuff I have on ignore so I have to see his maniacal ramblings.

 

[SWA Bubba]

DFW is a different deal than IAH. The govt conned two cities into one regional airport, then Dallas kept their downtown airport open. It allows you to drink upstream from the larger side of the region. Should have never happened like that.

Bubba correctly pointed out that Legend got buried by American, and a large legal battle was part of it. But Bubba fails to also mention that American flew airplanes in direct competition with them as well, and that the City of Ft Worth also sued Legend. FTW has always been pissed about this, and always will be. Legend was smited from existence in a very obvious and brutal way so that you guys knew what would have been done to SWA. They were sending a message.

Glad you brought that up, Flop. They were sending a message, but it was to Legend. The message was, killing you is ultimately cheaper than actually having to compete with you.

The Wright Amendment prohibited flights from Love to non-border states (later amended) in aircraft with more than 56 passenger seats. Legend found a great niche, genius in fact. They refitted DC-9s (or Super-80s, I forget) with 56 premium first class seats, and offered luxury service from DAL to places like NYC, Chicago, and LA. It was expensive, but no more than a walk-up fare offered by the legacies. The idea was to capture businessmen, traveling last minute on expense accounts who were going to pay that much anyway. This way, they'd get the a better and more luxurious ride for the same money. It was a fantastic idea, really. More importantly, it was completely within the law, including the Wright Amendment, not to mention all FAA rules and airport regulations.

What did American do? They filed a barrage of frivolous legal attacks, all without actual legal merit, and appealed them in turn as they were each dismissed in court. This took time, and lots of Legand's capital in legal fees. They simultaneously bought up and leased all the Love Field assets they could, even though they had no need for them, just to deny them to Legend. This forced Legend to spend even more money to build their own terminal, which incidentally was nicer than the other terminals. When American finally had no more courts to appeal to, Legend was allowed to commence flying. American then matched the service with specially-outfitted Fokkers, and undercut Legend's fares, despite losing tens of thousands of dollars every time one of their planes took off. Eventually (about a year, I believe), Legend ran out of money and went under, at which point American immediately ceased their money-losing Fokker service. Ultimately, the money they lost with that flying, and the money spent on frivolous legal fees was judged to be less than foregoing the big bucks they would have lost had their monopoly service walk-up fares between Dallas and the big business cities been challenged by real competition.

That sound familiar to you Flop? That's some of the same sort of crap that was attempted to kill Southwest in the early years, including by your beloved Continental, who was actually convicted in criminal court for doing even worse in their campaign. Kind of brings a tear to one's eye, doesn't it? Good ole' American capitalistic competition at its finest, you know? If you can't (or don't want to) compete with someone who may have a better product, just abuse the courts and/or hire an exterminator to kill them. It's usually cheaper in the long run.

So explain to me again, Flop, how what happened to Legend was a good and righteous thing in your mind.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Continental convicted in criminal court?

Yea, that sounds like a free trade type of move. I love how Flop tries to re-write history and then gets called out on it. Never gets old.

 

[Flopgut]

Glad you brought that up, Flop. They were sending a message, but it was to Legend. The message was, killing you is ultimately cheaper than actually having to compete with you.

The Wright Amendment prohibited flights from Love to non-border states (later amended) in aircraft with more than 56 passenger seats. Legend found a great niche, genius in fact. They refitted DC-9s (or Super-80s, I forget) with 56 premium first class seats, and offered luxury service from DAL to places like NYC, Chicago, and LA. It was expensive, but no more than a walk-up fare offered by the legacies. The idea was to capture businessmen, traveling last minute on expense accounts who were going to pay that much anyway. This way, they'd get the a better and more luxurious ride for the same money. It was a fantastic idea, really. More importantly, it was completely within the law, including the Wright Amendment, not to mention all FAA rules and airport regulations.

What did American do? They filed a barrage of frivolous legal attacks, all without actual legal merit, and appealed them in turn as they were each dismissed in court. This took time, and lots of Legand's capital in legal fees. They simultaneously bought up and leased all the Love Field assets they could, even though they had no need for them, just to deny them to Legend. This forced Legend to spend even more money to build their own terminal, which incidentally was nicer than the other terminals. When American finally had no more courts to appeal to, Legend was allowed to commence flying. American then matched the service with specially-outfitted Fokkers, and undercut Legend's fares, despite losing tens of thousands of dollars every time one of their planes took off. Eventually (about a year, I believe), Legend ran out of money and went under, at which point American immediately ceased their money-losing Fokker service. Ultimately, the money they lost with that flying, and the money spent on frivolous legal fees was judged to be less than foregoing the big bucks they would have lost had their monopoly service walk-up fares between Dallas and the big business cities been challenged by real competition.

That sound familiar to you Flop? That's some of the same sort of crap that was attempted to kill Southwest in the early years, including by your beloved Continental, who was actually convicted in criminal court for doing even worse in their campaign. Kind of brings a tear to one's eye, doesn't it? Good ole' American capitalistic competition at its finest, you know? If you can't (or don't want to) compete with someone who may have a better product, just abuse the courts and/or hire an exterminator to kill them. It's usually cheaper in the long run.

So explain to me again, Flop, how what happened to Legend was a good and righteous thing in your mind.

Bubba

Real easy Bubba. Listen up, and don't confuse my ability to make short posts with any confusion (seriously, how much do you have to write?).

Legend did not have the willingness of the federal govt to step in insure its success like they did for SWA*. They were a sharp group that started it, had money and a great idea. Their crucial error was thinking that just because they wanted to use Love Field, they would get the same special treatment that SWA got. It wasn't there for them because it really never should have been there in the first place. American had to make an example of Legend; If they had gone to DFW, they might still be in business.

*SWA success at Love can't be recreated because it's mostly artificial to begin with. Even right now today, what's going on there? The federal govt stepping in and making sure Delta doesn't stay. It's because success at Love Field requires the federal assistance. You don't have a leg to stand on anymore.

 

[HowardBorden]

*SWA success at Love can't be recreated because it's mostly artificial to begin with. Even right now today, what's going on there? The federal govt stepping in and making sure Delta doesn't stay. It's because success at Love Field requires the federal assistance. You don't have a leg to stand on anymore.

Actually, I think one can rest assured that American would step in and assure that Delta doesn't stay at Love, post Wright Amendment.

If AA was not divesting the gates which it owns at Love due to the consensual agreement reached in the antitrust case, do you really think AA would allow Delta to remain at Love and directly compete against AA on unrestricted flights from that airport directly competing with the AA monopoly 11 miles away at DFW? Delta currently operates one gate under a sub-lease from American that is terminable on thirty-days' notice, don't you think that that lease would have been terminated anyway if for no other reason than to disallow Delta's ability to offer a similar product in such close proximity to their service at DFW?

American was likely to terminate the subleases and operate the gates itself, once the Wright Amendment restrictions expire in October. Delta, therefore, never had a contractual right or expectation that it would be able to remain at the American gate.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

And then there was Braniff,

 

[waveflyer]

Artificial??

All those passengers were just faking their preference for Love??

 

[tankerhead]

Artificial??

All those passengers were just faking their preference for Love??

Just the women.

 

[redflyer65]

Awesome post Tanker.

 

[LoveGun]

Isn't SWA already putting out ads in response to Virgin America? This gate thing is a done deal, at least for the time being. Unfair politics has been a part of life since humans organized themselves into anything larger than a tribe. Get used to it. You either ride the wave or get crushed by it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Real easy Bubba. Listen up, and don't confuse my ability to make short posts with any confusion (seriously, how much do you have to write?).

Legend did not have the willingness of the federal govt to step in insure its success like they did for SWA*.

Yet another example of your absurd version of history. Please tell us how the federal government "stepped in" to insure Southwest's success at Love Field. Please give specifics, and this time, actually stick to facts.

The fact is, the ONLY federal involvement in whether or not Southwest succeeded at Love Field was when American Airlines' stooge, the "honorable" Speaker Jim Wright, abused his power by sneaking the WA into unrelated legislation after it failed on its own merits when he submitted it as a stand-along measure. And that was after every court in the land slapped down all the BS legal attacks the other airlines mounted in an attempt to keep from having to compete in Dallas.

Well, I suppose there was an additional "federal government" involvement in the whole affair: the US Supreme Court refused to hear arguments after every other court laughed the other airlines out of their courtrooms, effectively ending the legal attacks in that case.

So basically, the only federal government involvement at Love was the WA itself--to hobble Southwest when it tried to expand out of Dallas Love to interstate service. Gee, I think we certainly would have wished to NOT have had that "help," you know, Flop?

They were a sharp group that started it, had money and a great idea. Their crucial error was thinking that just because they wanted to use Love Field, they would get the same special treatment that SWA got. It wasn't there for them because it really never should have been there in the first place. American had to make an example of Legend; If they had gone to DFW, they might still be in business.

More self-serving Flopgut crap. They didn't want "special treatment" at Love; they wanted to operate under the laws, including the BS Wright Amendment. It wasn't a lack of "federal government" treatment that killed them; it was American Airlines not wanting to have to compete with their business plan. American Airlines killed Legend just the same if they had fired a sniper's bullet.

And don't fool yourself that American would have been fine with this same competition out of DFW. They weren't upholding or enforcing some "higher ideal" about Dallas Love; they were ruthlessly stomping out the possibility of competition--any competition, that is--that they could get away with.

*SWA success at Love can't be recreated because it's mostly artificial to begin with. Even right now today, what's going on there? The federal govt stepping in and making sure Delta doesn't stay. It's because success at Love Field requires the federal assistance. You don't have a leg to stand on anymore.

Actually, SWA success at Love can't be "recreated" there, because American and DFW's insistence in the 2006 agreement to artificially limit the gates at Love; that's why. Delta is going away, because they didn't actually own any gates at Love. As Howard pointed out, if American didn't agree to divest them as a condition of their merger, they would terminate Delta's contract and operate the gates themselves. Those gates are worth much more, now that the oppressive, competition-stifling WA restrictions are being lifted. Delta wasn't going to have those gates in October under any circumstances. But don't let facts get in the way of your anti-SWA rant.

The fact is, success at Love Field requires absolutely NO federal assistance whatsoever--it just requires no federal interference, like the WA. You know, Flop, if the feds had never done a single thing about Love (no WA, for example), Southwest would probably have been operating nearly 32 gates at Love (instead of the 16 we have now), and flying to all corners of the country all along over the past 35 years, instead of waiting until this coming October. The only real difference would be that American would have faced a lot more competition in their domestic network out of Dallas, and fares would have been lower for all those years.

Bubba

 

[Flopgut]

More self-serving Flopgut crap. They didn't want "special treatment" at Love; they wanted to operate under the laws, including the BS Wright Amendment. It wasn't a lack of "federal government" treatment that killed them; it was American Airlines not wanting to have to compete with their business plan. American Airlines killed Legend just the same if they had fired a sniper's bullet.

And don't fool yourself that American would have been fine with this same competition out of DFW. They weren't upholding or enforcing some "higher ideal" about Dallas Love; they were ruthlessly stomping out the possibility of competition--any competition, that is--that they could get away with.

Bubba

Are you trying to make a point with a shear volume of words!? Gmafb

I disagree with you on Legend at DFW. At the very least they would have saved a ton in legal fees, agree? And too, it shouldn't be struck from consideration that a new airline could manage to start up by playing by prevailing rules and not exploiting a situation. I know this sounds like crazy talk to a long time SWA guy, but look no further than your fellow pilots who came from AirTran. That airline did a lot in 16 years and did it with heads up competition (no airport deal) against mostly Delta. That prospect pbly sends a shiver up ur spine, doesn't it Bubba? They bootstrapped it from day one in heads up competition, AND they didn't even have to objectify women by forcing them to wear hot pants! *

*for the record I'm not against hot pants in most cases. But using them so people will fly your airline, pbly shouldn't be something one is too proud of.

I'll agree with you on this Bubba: the feds should have stayed out of the airport situation in Dallas and Ft Worth. Completely and from day 1 not been involved. From forcing DFW be built/used to kicking 2 [two] legacies off Love Field as we speak (thank you Howard for making that clear) the govt involvement has only helped one airline.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm proud of it flop

Wish we'd go back to hot pants, paint bikini ladies on the side when SI comes out, and give out free bottles of Crown for buying a seat again-

Unfortunately too many of our own people have the same stick up their ass that you do flop

 

[scoreboardII]

SWA Bubba, hate to disagree, but I think the Wright Amendment gave a false sense of security to the legacies, I mean, how could a small airline restricted to one airfield required to stop at the first state outside the state, ever make it? They shouldn't have, yet did. And didn't until the legacies failed to realize it before it was to late.

My bet is that if the WA never existed, SWA would have been bought up by AA or someone within ten years.

Which is exactly what needs to happen to the likes of Spirit, JB, Allegient, etc. let them run, and they become the SWA of tomorrow.