Southwest and Airtran

[Obi-Wan]

The reason I'm asking is that I am a 1900 Capt now but have the opportunity to go fly a heavier jet Ac as PIC overseas. What I was trying to find out is that pound for pound would the jet PIC be more valuable or the 1900PIC. Afterall the 1900 is a light AC and easy to fly and has very simple systems.

 

[temcgrew]

121 pic or military equivalent?

what the heck is that supposed to mean? If anything is the "equivalent" of 121 wouldn't 135 be closer than military?
The only reason I can see for that is that some military guy is in the hiring department. I don't see any comparison to a military background and an airline.

If I was flying a single engine fighter, single pilot ops, AirTran compares that to Passenger ops in a crew situation. I am only a 135 captain so I don't have what they want!!

 

[flx757]

Obi-Wan,

I would think that turbine PIC time is turbine PIC time. At AirTran, I don't believe they would favor one over the other, and would think the same would be true at SWA.

The only exception I can think of would be jetBlue, in that they have as part of their stated minimums 1000 hours (either PIC or SIC) in aircraft with a MTOW in excess of 20000 lbs.


UEJ500,

I agree wholeheartedly, and have let my strong feelings on this subject be known time and again. Unfortunately, those that are making these decisions feel otherwise.

 

[Torpid]

for what its worth...

Had a SWA jumpseater who recently flew with a training Captain who told him:
1. SWA is going to look heavily at 121 time and
2. they are going to look to see if you have reached the highest flying position at your company.

I know its second hand info but it seems pretty logical to me.

 

[cactuspilot]

At least 4 A&W escapees in the last 2 classes...

 

[iflyhigh]

I attended the June Air Inc conference in Atlanta. Per Jill N from Airtran. They are only looking at resumes with at least 500 of 121 PIC turbine or military equivalent. To be competitive, you should have 1000 PIC 121 or equivalent in Military. The reason she stated is that 121 is harder to fly than 135. This was stated after Airnet just gave their speech. Thought it to be a little tasteless.

Now for my rant. I have flown both 121 PIC and 135 PIC and Corporate. Which is worse...by far corporate, next 135. Being a part 135 captain left me to make all the decisions. I filed flight plans, talk to the customers when weather in the crapper and can't go right away or have to divert. Have to make sure aircraft cater and that customer is happy.

I know I will get alot of 121 guys that disagree with me. But you have yet to have a customer yell at you at 7:00 am over the phone because their limo is not outside the FBO. Believe it a pain.

I think Jill should experience 135 before she speaks. I could be mistaken, and maybe she has worked in 135, but from the sounds of it she has not.

 

[Torpid]

Being a part 135 captain left me to make all the decisions. I filed flight plans, talk to the customers when weather in the crapper and can't go right away or have to divert. Have to make sure aircraft cater and that customer is happy

I agree with you 100% that this part of your job can be the toughest. As a 121 captain, I have to make decisions that are completely different than what you have to make. Is my flight release complete. Do I need and alternate and if so is my alternate wx sufficient. Do I have enough fuel or can I carry some extra for deviations and still not bump pax and bags. (can't just rely on dispatchers to make the correct decisions. I've caught errors many times on my release). If my plane has a mechanical problem and I have to return to the gate, I have to explain to 50 people why they are not going to get to their destination.

The point is, whether you're a 121 or 135 captain, we have to make big decisions everyday we fly. Maybe what SWA and Airtran like about 121 time is that it closely mirrors what their day to day operation is like. Doesn't mean that a 135 pilot can't learn it (heck, I did!!). I guess in this day and age they can afford to be more selective.

 

[cgmason1]

As a 121 captain, I have to make decisions that are completely different than what you have to make. Is my flight release complete. Do I need and alternate and if so is my alternate wx sufficient. Do I have enough fuel or can I carry some extra for deviations and still not bump pax and bags. (can't just rely on dispatchers to make the correct decisions. I've caught errors many times on my release). If my plane has a mechanical problem and I have to return to the gate, I have to explain to 50 people why they are not going to get to their destination.

Actually Frax and 135 Pilots have to make these exact decisions also--above and beyond the extra items involved when dealing directly with high paying passengers.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[English]

I've flown as a 121 captain and as a part 135/91 captain. The experience I have gained part 135/91 has been much more valuable than that gained while in the airlines. One's decision making as a part 121 captain is limited by company policy and culture. On the other hand, as a part 91 captain, I have 100% decision-making ability about where to divert, what kind of catering to have on board, where to buy fuel and if I'll save the company money doing it, what route I'll file in the flight plan, and so on. I choose the right seater, if I have one, based on their customer service skills and ability to follow instructions. Part 121 captains can't choose their fellow crew members. They can't choose their own alternates, what kind of food to have on board, where to buy fuel, or even file thier own flight plans. If a 121 guy has a maintenance problem in flight, a call to company maintenence control gives him a mechanic to tell him what action to take. Not much decision making there. Part 91/135? No one to call, you are on your own.

So, how is 121 experience more valuable than part 135/91? Seems to me they are both equally valuable, just in different ways.

 

[airbaker]

As a former 121 Captain, major airline f/o (furloughed), 135 Captain, and now part 91 Captain, I'd have to agree spot on with English. You wear many hats in the corporate/135 world.

Not that being a regional Captain in a 30-seater, based out of the busiest international gateway in the U.S. didn't have it's moments. But by in large it was the easiest job I've had to date.

I'd hope Airtran would realize they're leaving out a group of very qualified and capable folks. (and no, it's not sour grapes on my part, I have met the mins)

 

[dlredline]

My .02 worth . . .

Having flown Captain under both 135 and 121, I'll agree with the majority that there are challenges associated with both. If the AirTran gal actually said what she did about 135 flying, I think that's incredibly naive (and speaks volumes about the pitfalls of having HR people make the final decisions on pilots). It is their loss by discounting a vast majority of professionals who would be productive addtions to their operations, and I hope they reconsider this exclusionary practice.

DL

 

[learjetguy]

My humble opinion

When I was a lear f/o at my first charter company, I had the honor of flying with some major airline pilots (they would fly as captains on the lear on their days off). Everyone of them believed that 121 flying was much easier than 135 flying. Not that there wasnt a learning curve moving from 135 to 121 but that once a pilot learned the routine at his/her airline, the overall job was easier. They all agreed that ANY pilot with alot of turbine PIC would make a fine airline pilot. What I do not understand is why there is this perception that somehow a 135 driver would struggle through training or otherwise be unable to successfully transition to 121 flying. I myself was lucky enough to be at an airline for a VERY brief period prior to 9/11. It AIN'T rocket science but some apparently think so.

Learguy

 

[Ty Webb]

Look, Guys:

As a former 91/135 Jet PIC and now an AirTran 121 FO, I feel pretty qualified to speak on this subject. I have tried hard now for the past two years to get interviews for a number of great pilots, only to have them rejected out-of-hand because they don't meet the 121 requirement. I myself would not qualify for an interview today at AirTran, even though I have over 500 hrs of jet PIC and over 1500 SIC in the B717! So believe me, I think the policy is misguided.

No one is downplaying the skills and abilities of the non-121 guys, and no one is saying that 121 is "rocket science". It is just different, and the hiring gurus seem to think that the deck will be more stacked in their favor if, all things are equal, a guy has airline PIC time.

The reasoning behind seems to stem from concerns regarding the quick upgrade (projected to be 18 months for today's newhires) and does not allowing for much "seasoning". Most of the upgrade washouts, from what I am hearing, stem not from a lack of technical skill or ability (flying the plane, working the FMS, etc) but with command decision-making in a 121 environment. Those doing the "judging" are pretty harsh; many of them spent 14 years in the right seat of a DC9 before upgrade, and they seem to have real concerns about releasing someone to the left seat after only two years. Whether this concern is valid or not, well, I don;t think I am fully qualified to judge (I haven't been through the upgrade yet) but that is where some of it seems to stem from.

While I think that 135 and 91 flights are certainly equally challenging in their own distinct ways (a past pop-up trip to Tegucigalpa, Honduras comes to mind), there are different decisions that have to be made in a fast-paced 121 environment, and somehow, AirTran has come to place more value on 121 operational experience.

Just like an experienced 91/135 guy knows that when you hear, "We need to depart at 0600 and we are going to Teterboro, or Dulles, and we may have to stop enroute to pick up Jim Bob in Alamosa" you know immediately that:

1) You have three different flights to plan, and three flight plans to file, and there are right away some "red flags" to address, namely-

2) You probably can't fuel for TEB and still make landing weight to pick up Jim Bob in nearby Alamosa, so you

3) Start checking to make sure Alamosa has Jet A, that they will be open at that time, and that you can make it out of there topped off with your TEB fuel and meet second segment climb gradient (you can't) so you-

4) Call the client, and diplomatically inform him of the problem. He decides to send Jim Bob on "the skeds", and you can forget about Alamosa.

Meanwhile, the guy with only 121 time, is still spinning his wheels planning the trip to Alamosa, which isn;t even going to happen now.

Well, in our operation, a scheduled 42 minute turn often becomes a 25 minute turn, sometimes with an equipment change and/or crew change, and in that regard, the the past familiarity with 121 operations is a definite plus when it comes to speed-reading the Dispatch Release, the Log, etc. and identifying those same type of "red flags" and solving those problems before they occur, in a very time-compressed scenario.

Is 121 flying "easier"? No, I don;t think either one is easier or harder, they are just different, and like some employers want to hire a FO with "Learjet experience" AirTran is saying they want to hire pilots with airline command experience. Do I agree with either, nope. But, in this market, they can do it. As the market chanegs, so will these types of requirements.

 

[LearLove]

The hardest I've every worked in my career was as a 135 PIC. Outside of newhire training and upgrade training in the 121 environment, it only got easier when I went online as a 121 FO then it was actually easier when I upgraded as a 121 Capt.

I've never learned as much or grew as much as a pilot as when I was a 135 PIC.

However, like I said, the balls in AirTrans court. If they want green haired space shuttle pilots who dance on bars with their ball sacks hanging out, then so be it. Nothing we can do about it.

 

[learjetguy]

Green hair requirement???

Green hair???...Does anybody know Dennis Rodman's phone number?? Theres a guy I would liked to overnight with.