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Southwest, AirTran Brothers and Sisters!

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Pcl

And this is an area where I've always held ALPA and APA complicit. I don't know how long you've been doing this gig but in the early days when the Comairs and Skywest's were merely feeders to the Hub and Spoke the mainline guys had a real attitude problem towards our commuter brethren. They didn't want them "stealing" their work and instead of bringing them into the party under their wing they stiff-armed them and allowed the companies to pit pilot against pilot. What should have been a collective effort by all to maintain control of all the flying and not allow the majority of the mainline flying to get farmed out to RJ's being built with better and better range, it became a race to the bottom.

Hopefully ALPA and APA have learned from the mistakes of the past. I know we benefited from that history. As I stated earlier we paid dearly for our Section One and even you would agree that it's the envy of the industry. I would have preferred NO CODEHSARE whatsoever but our problem was that we had those in our own union who were drinking too much of the kool-aid to see it differently.
 
And this is an area where I've always held ALPA and APA complicit. I don't know how long you've been doing this gig but in the early days when the Comairs and Skywest's were merely feeders to the Hub and Spoke the mainline guys had a real attitude problem towards our commuter brethren. They didn't want them "stealing" their work and instead of bringing them into the party under their wing they stiff-armed them and allowed the companies to pit pilot against pilot. What should have been a collective effort by all to maintain control of all the flying and not allow the majority of the mainline flying to get farmed out to RJ's being built with better and better range, it became a race to the bottom.

Couldn't agree more. Great summary of the problems of the past. Egos got in the way of people dealing with the problems effectively, and we've all suffered as a result. I believe we've come a long way from those days, and I don't see the same problems today.

As I stated earlier we paid dearly for our Section One and even you would agree that it's the envy of the industry.

In many ways, yes, I do agree, but I worry about the near-international code-share without seat restrictions. Allowing SWA to outsource a significant source of possible growth is troubling, especially when it can be done on small narrow-body aircraft instead of just on RJs. But yes, the domestic code-share protections are wonderful, and I think most mainline pilots across the industry do envy them.
 
Pcl

In many ways, yes, I do agree, but I worry about the near-international code-share without seat restrictions. Allowing SWA to outsource a significant source of possible growth is troubling, especially when it can be done on small narrow-body aircraft instead of just on RJs. But yes, the domestic code-share protections are wonderful, and I think most mainline pilots across the industry do envy them.
As I stated earlier. There were only so many battles to be won on codeshare. I feel we won the war. It wasn't everything, but it was damn close.

What is Airtran's scope regarding domestic and near international?
 
PCl,

"troubling"?

Really?

I can't believe the spin your members tolerate.

Would you like to hold your section one (and applicable side letters) for a line by line comparison of ours (SWAPA)?
 
As I stated earlier. There were only so many battles to be won on codeshare. I feel we won the war. It wasn't everything, but it was damn close.

Agreed. I think you guys made the right decision. It just would have been nice to capture the near-international as well. You always have to make trades. We had to give up some seats to get holding company protections, so I know the feeling.

What is Airtran's scope regarding domestic and near international?

It's all based on seats and ASMs, so it doesn't differentiate between domestic or international. There are lots of different tiers depending on seats, number of mainline aircraft, growth, and ASMs, but the short answer is that it's limited to mostly 70-seaters at a max of 15% of block hours right now, with an allowance for 71-86 seaters for a handful of airplanes. It used to be limited to just 70-seats, but we gave up the extra few seats on a few airplanes to get the holding company protections and some other scope improvements. Definitely not what we wanted, but I think it was worth the trade.

PCl,

"troubling"?

Really?

I can't believe the spin your members tolerate.

Would you like to hold your section one (and applicable side letters) for a line by line comparison of ours (SWAPA)?

I think ours is troubling, too. There isn't a mainline scope section that I like, in fact. They're all a bunch of compromises that have been made over the years. It's all about measuring risk and making tough decisions.
 
PCl,

"troubling"?

Really?

I can't believe the spin your members tolerate.

Would you like to hold your section one (and applicable side letters) for a line by line comparison of ours (SWAPA)?

From a union/airline that has pretty much no restrictions on codeshare, near-international or otherwise, for him to use the word "troubling" is just posturing for the sake of ALPA and their failed polices. It's reminiscent of Lee Moak saying that (and I quote) "independent unions have no chance of success" when the most successful union currently is SWAPA, an independent union, with the industry leading contract and industry leading scope. (Eat your heart out, Gen Lee and OYS) Just more examples of ALPA sticking their head in the sand while the world moves on. Long live the DPA!

PapaWoody
 
Pcl

Okay Here's our language regarding codeshare.

Domestic Codeshare
Southwest Airlines will not enter into a domestic Codeshare Agreement within the fifty (50)
United States without the agreement of the Association.

Codeshare for Regional Aircraft Flying
Southwest Airlines will not enter into any domestic or trans-border code share agreement
with a regional carrier or involving a regional aircraft except to provide inter-island service
within the Hawaiian Islands or inter-island service within the Caribbean Islands.

Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare
Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Codeshare
flights that include a trans-border segment between Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean and
a SWA city in the continental United States.
The combined total trans-border segment ASMs flown by SWA Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare partners pursuant to Near International/Trans-Border Agreements with SWA shall not exceed a total of four (4) percent of the total ASMs flown by SWA in the previous calendar year, excluding ASMs flown by SWA on Near International/Trans-Border flights, as measured on a one for one ASM basis, to include each common city pair.
The measure of SWA ASMs will be calculated using the ASMs reported in the SWA annual report unless another method is mutually agreed upon by SWA and SWAPA.

Other Codeshare
The Company will not enter into any other Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement (to
include far international Codeshare flying) unless expressly delineated above, without the
agreement of the Association.
How does that stack up with AAI's?
 
I think the difference pcl that is more important is how we operate at SWA. The paid by the minute- constant playing of the safety card- adversarial relationships ALPa has w/ managements is something we'd like to avoid.

My argument is that ALPA didn't start it- their mgmt did. But it's very very different here. More than Nuts can tell you- more than your friends can tell you. We're militantly protective of the culture which is much more in line with success. We don't want something for nothing- we want fair value for productivity. The perception is that ALPA has not participated in profitability enough as adversarial cultures get entrenched and eventually have become cultural.
The viewpoint that is is naive to be productive and work hard and go the extra mike isn't deserved at SWA and simply won't be tolerated.
Are AT pilots up for that?

We ought to reward mgmt who treats is this well-

As for the SLI- just give it a rest. Have a comment - mail it in- but this will be a good combination as long as everyone keeps their attitudes positive and expectations in line w/ reality.
 
I think the difference pcl that is more important is how we operate at SWA. The paid by the minute- constant playing of the safety card- adversarial relationships ALPa has w/ managements is something we'd like to avoid.

ALPA doesn't create adversarial relationships, managements do. ALPA merely responds when attacked. There are plenty of examples of ALPA having cooperative and even friendly relationships with managements. Delta has been a good example in recent years. Captain Moak and Richard Anderson worked together to build a healthy and respectful relationship between the union and the company. It's served them well. Is it as good as the relationship between SWA management and their pilots? No, but again, that's just a result of management. Delta management is certainly better than other legacy carriers in this regard, but not of the same mindset as SWA management. ALPA would work just fine in the kind of environment that you have at SWA. It would prosper, in fact. There just haven't been opportunities for that sort of relationship with managements at other carriers. SWA is one-of-a-kind in that regard.
 
PCL,

There are a TON of disenfranchised regional ALPA pilots. To say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand. ALPA is unfortunately broken.

It started out as a great organization and has morphed into a top-heavy, overbloated organization that has lost it's compass for the regular pilots. Alot of the politcal ambition within the upper ranks, but not much returns for the dues paying line pilot.

Hard to believe that ALPA can fight regional outsourcing on the major side and represent the same regional pilots. Like talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
 
Redflyer-
I actually don't see the conflict of interest. I believe that getting outsourcing all under one seniority list DOES represent ALL pilots.

The bloated political disconnect I do agree with.
 
ALPA doesn't create adversarial relationships, managements do. ALPA merely responds when attacked. There are plenty of examples of ALPA having cooperative and even friendly relationships with managements. Delta has been a good example in recent years. Captain Moak and Richard Anderson worked together to build a healthy and respectful relationship between the union and the company. It's served them well. Is it as good as the relationship between SWA management and their pilots? No, but again, that's just a result of management. Delta management is certainly better than other legacy carriers in this regard, but not of the same mindset as SWA management. ALPA would work just fine in the kind of environment that you have at SWA. It would prosper, in fact. There just haven't been opportunities for that sort of relationship with managements at other carriers. SWA is one-of-a-kind in that regard.

I don't always agree with that PCL- some groups have been fighting the fight for so long w/ ALPA leading the charge- that they will find the negative in ANY mgmt. Beaten dog syndrome. I don't blame them, but the question still stands and is an honest one: when an individual makes the choice to leave to come to SWA- their attitude is great- - they're excited about the opportunity-
Are AT pilots ready to be that same level of positive??

or are you at ALPA spoiling the well, getting them riled up so to the point that
if relative seniority doesn't happen-(which it won't)- that they'll be disappointed and bittered?
Will you try to hold the culture as leverage over SWA's head?

Represent- and represent well- just please be careful of the line in the sands and the hard stance. Southwest has never responded well to that.
( I say that only for the benefit of friends over there
No threat, subtle or overt- I'm nobody- but it's my feel and there seems to be plenty of history to support that- we are great to those who work with us... Those who work against.....not so much )
 
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Quick ALPA note and AirTran: That move was a necessary evil. Our "in house" just didn't have the resources (or moxy) to negotiate a decent contract. So we brought big brother in. I don't think a single AT pilot gives a hoot about keeping ties with ALPA. Frankly we RELISH the thought of not only working for a labor friendly company, but one with an effective in house union too. Only PCL 128 is probably sad about the potential departure from ALPA, as I believe he was a major player getting them on property. If the merger doesn't work out, he will probably end up working in Herndon at some point down the road.
 
"independent unions have no chance of success" when the most successful union currently is SWAPA, an independent union, with the industry leading contract and industry leading scope.
When/If you go "full on" international, you'll most definitely need more experience and relationships than swapa can offer. They're a good little union for domestic flying, but if widebodies are ever introduced, they'll need some big guns with significant resources.
 
International

JJ

I did it wih IBT and ALPA in a previous life. Nothing to it and the union barely played a role, other than the fact they were line slugs just like you and me.

Of all those unions SWAPA has impressed me the most. I would say that one key factor in us being able to negotiate as well as we could against the company is that we never had the sacred cow (the A fund). Trust me. Ten years ago I would have sold the farm for an A fund. Unfortunately, we've all seen what the company and the government do with that promissory note.

I would say we were lucky instead of good. The good ole boys made big bank on the options and profit sharing, something us late bloomers missed out on (anyone in the last fifteen years) But, our wages especially the rigs package have made up for some of that in a much better annual salary.

Timing is everything and we have to acknowledge that our biggest bargaining chip was UAL's and DAL's contracts around 2000. The disparity was too great and SWA could no longer keep us at bay. You don't have 39 straight quarters of profits at an airline and not properly compensate the guys/gals that are flying the planes.

Scope and codeshare. We have the bigger unions to thank as well as we learned from the mistakes of the past of ALPA and APA.
 
When/If you go "full on" international, you'll most definitely need more experience and relationships than swapa can offer. They're a good little union for domestic flying, but if widebodies are ever introduced, they'll need some big guns with significant resources.

Don't respond, It's just Gen Lee in a speedo.

Carry on boys, glad to actually see a discussion.
 
Scheduled DH BA KDFW to EGKK

Are you guys actually having civil discussion?
Practically begged the ticket agent to put me in business. No go. Enplane and I'm in the back with the rest of steerage and this beautiful, young (female-just to nip the bad jokes right now) BA purser tells me to grab my bags and comes with her. Points to a seat in Business class and asks me if that will work for me.

I say, Yes, of course and thank her profusely for the upgrade. She grabs my hand and says, "Absolutely. Out here, if we don't take care of each other-Who will?"

Kind of sums it up for the industry as a whole.
 
Quick ALPA note and AirTran: That move was a necessary evil. Our "in house" just didn't have the resources (or moxy) to negotiate a decent contract. So we brought big brother in. I don't think a single AT pilot gives a hoot about keeping ties with ALPA. Frankly we RELISH the thought of not only working for a labor friendly company, but one with an effective in house union too. Only PCL 128 is probably sad about the potential departure from ALPA, as I believe he was a major player getting them on property. If the merger doesn't work out, he will probably end up working in Herndon at some point down the road.

You will learn soon enough ALPA is nothing more than a puppet master. They don't care about any AT pilot and will try and throw you all under the bus if it means more dues money by getting the SW pilots in the union. That's how they work. Look how ALPA tried to throw my pilot group under the bus- we got a new union and love living free ever since!
As a trannie just be careful because the SW pilots can be vicous- look at ATA and Morris Air!
 

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