Southwest, AirTran Brothers and Sisters!

[redflyer65]

PCL,

There are a TON of disenfranchised regional ALPA pilots. To say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand. ALPA is unfortunately broken.

It started out as a great organization and has morphed into a top-heavy, overbloated organization that has lost it's compass for the regular pilots. Alot of the politcal ambition within the upper ranks, but not much returns for the dues paying line pilot.

Hard to believe that ALPA can fight regional outsourcing on the major side and represent the same regional pilots. Like talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

 

[waveflyer]

Redflyer-
I actually don't see the conflict of interest. I believe that getting outsourcing all under one seniority list DOES represent ALL pilots.

The bloated political disconnect I do agree with.

 

[waveflyer]

ALPA doesn't create adversarial relationships, managements do. ALPA merely responds when attacked. There are plenty of examples of ALPA having cooperative and even friendly relationships with managements. Delta has been a good example in recent years. Captain Moak and Richard Anderson worked together to build a healthy and respectful relationship between the union and the company. It's served them well. Is it as good as the relationship between SWA management and their pilots? No, but again, that's just a result of management. Delta management is certainly better than other legacy carriers in this regard, but not of the same mindset as SWA management. ALPA would work just fine in the kind of environment that you have at SWA. It would prosper, in fact. There just haven't been opportunities for that sort of relationship with managements at other carriers. SWA is one-of-a-kind in that regard.

I don't always agree with that PCL- some groups have been fighting the fight for so long w/ ALPA leading the charge- that they will find the negative in ANY mgmt. Beaten dog syndrome. I don't blame them, but the question still stands and is an honest one: when an individual makes the choice to leave to come to SWA- their attitude is great- - they're excited about the opportunity-
Are AT pilots ready to be that same level of positive??

or are you at ALPA spoiling the well, getting them riled up so to the point that
if relative seniority doesn't happen-(which it won't)- that they'll be disappointed and bittered?
Will you try to hold the culture as leverage over SWA's head?

Represent- and represent well- just please be careful of the line in the sands and the hard stance. Southwest has never responded well to that.
( I say that only for the benefit of friends over there
No threat, subtle or overt- I'm nobody- but it's my feel and there seems to be plenty of history to support that- we are great to those who work with us... Those who work against.....not so much )

 

[humveedriver]

Quick ALPA note and AirTran: That move was a necessary evil. Our "in house" just didn't have the resources (or moxy) to negotiate a decent contract. So we brought big brother in. I don't think a single AT pilot gives a hoot about keeping ties with ALPA. Frankly we RELISH the thought of not only working for a labor friendly company, but one with an effective in house union too. Only PCL 128 is probably sad about the potential departure from ALPA, as I believe he was a major player getting them on property. If the merger doesn't work out, he will probably end up working in Herndon at some point down the road.

 

[jonjuan]

"independent unions have no chance of success" when the most successful union currently is SWAPA, an independent union, with the industry leading contract and industry leading scope.

When/If you go "full on" international, you'll most definitely need more experience and relationships than swapa can offer. They're a good little union for domestic flying, but if widebodies are ever introduced, they'll need some big guns with significant resources.

 

[Roomwithaview]

International

JJ

I did it wih IBT and ALPA in a previous life. Nothing to it and the union barely played a role, other than the fact they were line slugs just like you and me.

Of all those unions SWAPA has impressed me the most. I would say that one key factor in us being able to negotiate as well as we could against the company is that we never had the sacred cow (the A fund). Trust me. Ten years ago I would have sold the farm for an A fund. Unfortunately, we've all seen what the company and the government do with that promissory note.

I would say we were lucky instead of good. The good ole boys made big bank on the options and profit sharing, something us late bloomers missed out on (anyone in the last fifteen years) But, our wages especially the rigs package have made up for some of that in a much better annual salary.

Timing is everything and we have to acknowledge that our biggest bargaining chip was UAL's and DAL's contracts around 2000. The disparity was too great and SWA could no longer keep us at bay. You don't have 39 straight quarters of profits at an airline and not properly compensate the guys/gals that are flying the planes.

Scope and codeshare. We have the bigger unions to thank as well as we learned from the mistakes of the past of ALPA and APA.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Are you guys actually having civil discussion?

 

[mdf]

When/If you go "full on" international, you'll most definitely need more experience and relationships than swapa can offer. They're a good little union for domestic flying, but if widebodies are ever introduced, they'll need some big guns with significant resources.

Don't respond, It's just Gen Lee in a speedo.

Carry on boys, glad to actually see a discussion.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Scheduled DH BA KDFW to EGKK

Are you guys actually having civil discussion?

Practically begged the ticket agent to put me in business. No go. Enplane and I'm in the back with the rest of steerage and this beautiful, young (female-just to nip the bad jokes right now) BA purser tells me to grab my bags and comes with her. Points to a seat in Business class and asks me if that will work for me.

I say, Yes, of course and thank her profusely for the upgrade. She grabs my hand and says, "Absolutely. Out here, if we don't take care of each other-Who will?"

Kind of sums it up for the industry as a whole.

 

[St. Nic]

Quick ALPA note and AirTran: That move was a necessary evil. Our "in house" just didn't have the resources (or moxy) to negotiate a decent contract. So we brought big brother in. I don't think a single AT pilot gives a hoot about keeping ties with ALPA. Frankly we RELISH the thought of not only working for a labor friendly company, but one with an effective in house union too. Only PCL 128 is probably sad about the potential departure from ALPA, as I believe he was a major player getting them on property. If the merger doesn't work out, he will probably end up working in Herndon at some point down the road.

You will learn soon enough ALPA is nothing more than a puppet master. They don't care about any AT pilot and will try and throw you all under the bus if it means more dues money by getting the SW pilots in the union. That's how they work. Look how ALPA tried to throw my pilot group under the bus- we got a new union and love living free ever since!
As a trannie just be careful because the SW pilots can be vicous- look at ATA and Morris Air!

 

[ivauir]

ALPA would work just fine in the kind of environment that you have at SWA. It would prosper, in fact. There just haven't been opportunities for that sort of relationship with managements at other carriers. SWA is one-of-a-kind in that regard.

PCL,

That is pretty funny. You guys aren't even on property and you are p!issing off our management.

ALPA has lined their own pockets while this career has gone downhill in everyway at every ALPA carrier.

 

[Roomwithaview]

St. Nic

You will learn soon enough ALPA is nothing more than a puppet master. They don't care about any AT pilot and will try and throw you all under the bus if it means more dues money by getting the SW pilots in the union. That's how they work. Look how ALPA tried to throw my pilot group under the bus- we got a new union and love living free ever since!

I can say with almost near certainty that ALPA will not be the pilot union at SWA when this is all said and done.

As a trannie just be careful because the SW pilots can be vicous- look at ATA and Morris Air!

The SWA pilots had no say in what happened to the ATA guys. Unless you are talking about the fact that SWAPA pressed the company to make sure the ATA guys got preferential interviewing (front of the line) SWA didn't take the pilots. They waited for the fire sale and got it. Something that could happen again.

Morris. As far as I'm concerned those guys/gals made out like bandits. More than half didn't meet the hiring requirements yet they were all brought on the property and typed in training. Plus the majority upgraded at around five years or better and I don't think you'll find a one that will say it wasn't the best thing that ever happened to their career.

 

[SWA/CA]

That is pretty funny. You guys aren't even on property and you are p!issing off our management.

true...who cares about the Pilots...don't piss off management.

The SWA pilots had no say in what happened to the ATA guys. Unless you are talking about the fact that SWAPA pressed the company to make sure the ATA guys got preferential interviewing (front of the line) SWA didn't take the pilots. They waited for the fire sale and got it. Something that could happen again.

Morris. As far as I'm concerned those guys/gals made out like bandits. More than half didn't meet the hiring requirements yet they were all brought on the property and typed in training. Plus the majority upgraded at around five years or better and I don't think you'll find a one that will say it wasn't the best thing that ever happened to their career.

True...

 

[dicko]

ALPA would work just fine in the kind of environment that you have at SWA. It would prosper, in fact..

PCL,

I don't know a single pilot at AirTran who would even consider ALPA at SWA. I'm sure there are a few who join you at the dog bowl in the morning.

Think very carefully about these comments. You will find an extremely low tolerance amongst AirTran pilots for this type of discussion. We've seen what ALPA produces. It's not pretty.

You already have a credibility problem and an approval rating that makes Osama look good. This doesn't help. If you'd like to resign then you are welcome to present this topic to our pilots in the crew room. I'll bring the field dressings

 

[slaquer5]

Morris. As far as I'm concerned those guys/gals made out like bandits. More than half didn't meet the hiring requirements yet they were all brought on the property and typed in training. Plus the majority upgraded at around five years or better and I don't think you'll find a one that will say it wasn't the best thing that ever happened to their career.

How could more than half the Morris pilots not have the SWA requirements ? Did they just have mostly FO s and a hand full of captains. I have heard several Morris pilots say it will be nice to have another red headed step child on the property.

 

[texman]

PCL,

How about you PM me. We can talk about how all my four digit brothers and family will feel about ALPA on property.

 

[SWA/CA]

How about you PM me. We can talk about how all my four digit brothers and family will feel about ALPA on property.

I know a bunch of 5 digits guys/gals that don't want ALPA on property.

Oh, by the way Air Tran dudes will be 6 digit numbers! Welcome. Soon we will be at 100,000.

 

[PCL_128]

Are AT pilots ready to be that same level of positive??

AirTran pilots have historically been very positive. I haven't even worked here for too many years, but even when I was hired there was a much different environment. Management hadn't started the gross abuses of the pilots yet, and guys were happy to come to work and enjoyed working here. When the attitude of management changes, I'm sure everyone here will be right back to enjoying our jobs just like we used to. You have nothing to worry about in that regard. AirTran pilots will fit in quite well at SWA.

Are you guys actually having civil discussion?

It is possible, even on flightinfo.

PCL,

That is pretty funny. You guys aren't even on property and you are p!issing off our management.

ALPA has lined their own pockets while this career has gone downhill in everyway at every ALPA carrier.

We aren't attacking your union, so we do you feel the need to attack ours? Seems pretty childish.

I don't know a single pilot at AirTran who would even consider ALPA at SWA.

Three years ago, there wasn't a single pilot at AirTran that would have considered ALPA here. That obviously changed pretty quickly, and we elected ALPA by nearly 90%. That may happen someday at SWA, or it may not. I hope to see the day where every pilot in North America is represented by a single union, no matter what that union may be called. It's the only way that we'll ever achieve maximum leverage to improve our profession.

 

[slaquer5]

PCL


Alpa suck and have hung many out to dry. They have there own agenda and will do anything to anyone to accomplish there mission.

Ask and EAL pilot how they sold them a bag of goods.


Recap..... ALPA sucks

 

[ivauir]

PCL,

I'm sorry you see it as an attack. Many former ALPA members see it as a statement of fact.

ALPA has already done enough damage to my career, now you guys are on the prowl again - sending your MEC to SLI meetings and writing angry, immature letters to our management ...

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sorry you see it as an attack. Many former ALPA members see it as a statement of fact.

You may consider them to be "statements of fact," but they are divisive and unnecessary. I haven't seen anyone from AirTran attacking SWAPA here, and I hope it stays that way. Anything less would be completely inappropriate during this process.

ALPA has already done enough damage to my career, now you guys are on the prowl again - sending your MEC to SLI meetings and writing angry, immature letters to our management ...

SLI meetings? None have even taken place yet. And when they do, no one from the MEC will be there. Only the Merger Committee will attend. As far as "angry, immature letters," I would wager that you've never even seen the letters that ATN ALPA has sent to SWA management. If you had, you'd know that your statements are complete mischaracterizations.

 

[ivauir]

You're right about one thing:

The letter I was referencing was from your president to your pilots ...

 

[race#53]

How could more than half the Morris pilots not have the SWA requirements ? Did they just have mostly FO s and a hand full of captains. I have heard several Morris pilots say it will be nice to have another red headed step child on the property.

Here is how SWA treated the Morris pilots....

Defendants contend that the term "endtailing" is not completely accurate, since all Morris pilots received a January 1, 1994 seniority date and Southwest seniority began accruing from that date even though the pilots continued to fly for Morris for varying periods after the merger. Consequently, as Morris pilots were later transferred to Southwest, they occupied a better position on the seniority list than pilots hired by Southwest after January 1, 1994.
Dennis in Chicago

 

[27 driver]

How could more than half the Morris pilots not have the SWA requirements ? Did they just have mostly FO s and a hand full of captains. I have heard several Morris pilots say it will be nice to have another red headed step child on the property.

OOHHHHHH! But I am bald. I will be the bald headed step child.

 

[texman]

Why can't we just hire RED headed FA's in their 20's.LOL

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

She grabs my hand and says, "Absolutely. Out here, if we don't take care of each other-Who will?"

Sounds like the start of a porno...Cue the Music, Mile high bathroom scene!
KBB

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Why can't we just hire RED headed FA's in their 20's.LOL

That's what I'm talking about!!!

 

[ATLplt]

PCL




Ask and EAL pilot how they sold them a bag of goods.

I know the response one would get, and it ain't pretty...at all. Think lots of swearing and possible heart attack symptoms. The T-dub guys seem happy though. :angryfire

 

[Lear70]

Wish this forum would allow embedding videos ...

Lear, is there any chance?

My understanding is that embedded videos eat the bandwidth and that's why those and embedded images aren't allowed. Admittedly, my understanding is a little limited in that I haven't done anything computer-oriented beyond basic web editing in years, but that was the explanation that I was given once upon a time.

Sorry... I'd actually enjoy being able to embed pictures as well.