Southwest Airilnes Crosses into the Gray

[FoxHunter]

Hi!

Foxhunter, thanx 4 posting the exact wording.

Now, my question is, what do they mean by SS age? Would it be 62, which is the early retirement age? Or would it be the regular age, which varies depending on when you were born, and starts at 65? If that is the cas, and I assume it is, then the FAA could mandate different retirement ages for individual pilots based on their SS elligibility age.

Also, since the wording of the two bills is ALREADY the same, I believe that improves the chances of passage of the bills, since it indicates that the House and Senate already got together prior to introducing the bills so that there won't be problems later. Most bills are different, and a House-Senate committee has to hash out the differences.

Cliff
YIP

It be the normal full retirement age and will depend on the year you were born. I was born in October 1947 so my Social Security age is 66, for the younger people it is now 67 with the very real potential of going higher to solve the funding problem.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

michael707767:

ATC personnel are NOT required to retire at 56. If they want to stay past 56, ATC may or may not approve their request on a case-by-case basis. They have to pass an annual review after age 56. There is no maximum age beyond 56.

Cliff
YIP

 

[nimtz]

Can someone tell me why the Southwest pilot group wants age 60 repealed so bad that they want their union leading the charge in DC? I'm not making any judgements, but I'm just curious to hear from a line pilot the reasons why SWAPA has always lead the fight for this change?

 

[FoxHunter]

Can someone tell me why the Southwest pilot group wants age 60 repealed so bad that they want their union leading the charge in DC? I'm not making any judgements, but I'm just curious to hear from a line pilot the reasons why SWAPA has always lead the fight for this change?

Because ALPA is stuck in the past.

 

[Mach 80]

1. Flying airplanes at SWA is enjoyable and fun and management treats you well. It would certainly beat sitting around the house listening to your wife 7 days a week or piddling around on the golf course 5 days a week with a bunch of other has beens with their boring stories. I know a lot of pilots who thought they really would enjoy retirement but instead they are bored and miss the comraderie and fun of their airline work and are nearly going insane from to much time around the house and wife.

2. More importantly - two or 3 or more years more income and contributing to the 401k and getting profit sharing would mean a VERY large difference from 2 to 5 years of no contributions and sucking money out of the 401K 2, 3, or more years earlier. A HUGE difference.

Let's just look at 2 years more flying -- instead of taking, say $90,000/yr FROM your 401K (or converted to IRA) which would be $180,000, instead you contributed another $18,000/yr plus a company match of about $14,000, a year (total of $32,000/yr) plus the income of $190,000 each year from working......is a grand total of a net $624,000 total difference in money flow. And that was just for TWO more years...let alone 3 or more. A HUGE difference from leaving at age 60. (And I didn't add anything from profit sharing or added investments from the salary).

3. Many guys will retire at 60 anyway and some guys who will fly past age 60 would probably give away a trip or two or month...a very relaxing schedule and a nice chance to get out of the house and away from blabbermouth. (see #1).

 

[Jim Smyth]

One of our former Pilots (Bert Yetman) that is currently retired and well over the age of 60, many years ago took on the challange of trying to make a difference reguarding the age 60 rule. He still leads the charge for the PPF which is gaining massive momentum because of the current Pension problems of the industry.


http://www.ppf.org/


It had been voted on by our SWAPA Union membership over the years and always passes by a pretty good margin each time. If you think about it, almost all the Captains would want the age rule changed. If nothing more than to have a choice. About 1/3 of the FO's would want it changed because there is a percentage of them that came from the military after putting there 20 years in and are in there early 40's when they got on plus you have some younger guys that are thinking of what happens down the road when I get there. So IMO you will always have the majority siding with extending the age 60 rule.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Can't wait to see how many old geezers fall and break a hip getting out of the cockpit! <g>

 

[pilotyip]

By the time the present pilots reach age 65, the SSN retirement age will be rasied to 66+

 

[Purpledog]

If you don't want to fly till you die, just stop flying. Nobody is suggesting that you have to fly past age 60, the change in the law just gives pilots the option. The comments about boats, wives etc are childish. With your vast experience, you probably have a good feel for all that has happenedto the DB and DC plans at the legacy carriers. For a pilot to be forced into unemployment just so another can advance more rapidly makes no sense at all. The industry has always been cyclical, and will continue to be so. I think that last year was near record setting as far as total pilots hired, the problem is that the jobs were not with the traditional legacy carriers. Your time will come, be patient.

BS. If you don't think my A plan will be destroyed if I leave at 55, which I plan on doing, you're crazy. I realize the DC's have been attacked. My point is don't make me pay since you didn't plan otherwise in an unstable job. My time has come my friend, my airline makes money, lots and lots. But whose to say it will in the future. That is why I am putting away lots of my money. Go play golf and quit screwing the young guys you selfish ones.

 

[MotoX]

Extending retirement age

Sorry guys! This is all my fault! I JUST got my type!!! You can blame it all on me. Call it my luck in this industry.

 

[semperfido]

haven't ya heard "70 is the new 50"

 

[mjs]

I am not surprised many of the companies w/ current pension plans are not pushing for this more. Everyone is under-funded. By increasing the retirement age, it will reduce the amount that each account is under-funded.

For example, if the age is raised to 65. The group currently has 8,000 pilots. If the average payout per pilot is (this is an arbitrary #) $100,000 per year + medical benefits then the company could save $800,000,000 per year (8,000 pilots @ $100,000) times 5 years for a total of $4,000,000,000 plus medical benefits.

Even if current plans are frozen, as NWA pilots are considering, this would help the viability of the plans long term.

 

[Ty Webb]

By increasing the retirement age, it will reduce the amount that each account is under-funded.

For example, if the age is raised to 65. The group currently has 8,000 pilots. If the average payout per pilot is (this is an arbitrary #) $100,000 per year + medical benefits then the company could save $800,000,000 per year (8,000 pilots @ $100,000) times 5 years for a total of $4,000,000,000 plus medical benefits.

The numbers are a little more complicated than that, because you also have longevity pay issues and training costs.

Let's say you are replacing a 15th year pay CA with a 7th yr pay CA. You are also replacing a 7th yr FO with a newhire, but you are incurring two training events, at least, but amortizing them over the number of years. Then there are the taxes, employer contributions, etc to be made on the lower amounts.

Maybe someone would like to crunch those numbers, but it looks like the $100K the reitree is getting will be subsidized in large part with the newhire's probationary year pay . . . .

 

[Purpledog]

A general rule of thumb in this business, if your company wants it, you probably DON'T!

 

[FoxHunter]

A general rule of thumb in this business, if your company wants it, you probably DON'T!

Another general rule of thumb in this business is that new, inexperienced guys like you don't have a F...kn clue. Let me guess, went to college, Uncle Sam taught you to fly, had a buddy or two at Fedex, got the job, and now the world owes you. I think 25 years from now your views will be far different after you complete your education on the realities of life.

 

[semperfido]

Another general rule of thumb in this business is that new, inexperienced guys like you don't have a F...kn clue. Let me guess, went to college, Uncle Sam taught you to fly, had a buddy or two at Fedex, got the job, and now the world owes you. I think 25 years from now your views will be far different after you complete your education on the realities of life.

.....but purple is correct-a - mundo....if they say it's good for you then probably it's not

 

[fr8doggie]

Let me guess, went to college, Uncle Sam taught you to fly, had a buddy or two at Fedex, got the job, and now the world owes you. I think 25 years from now your views will be far different after you complete your education on the realities of life.

Let me guess. Too short to get a military pilot's slot. Worked for an airline that was about to go out of business. Got bought out by FedEx. Didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting hired here off the street. You got no buddies to recommend you for anything. And now the world owe's you a job until you're drooling all over the yoke.

BTW- you can thank ALPA for your relative seniority at FDX. If it had been up to the non-union FedEx pilots you would have been stapled to the bottom.

Have a great day!

 

[GearDaddy]

Can someone tell me why the Southwest pilot group wants age 60 repealed so bad that they want their union leading the charge in DC? I'm not making any judgements, but I'm just curious to hear from a line pilot the reasons why SWAPA has always lead the fight for this change?

Good Question Nimtz, as a 3 year WN FO I'll throw in my two cents.. Firstly, since nobody can seem to agree on this, maybe we should all call it exactly what it is: Greed. Everyone wants what is best for him or her, period. The older pilots want to stick around to make MORE money, and the younger guys want them out so they can.. Myself included.



Now on to your question about the "Southwest Pilot Group".. There was a vote several years ago on wheather or not to utilize the resources of SWAPA to pursue a change to the age 60 rule. I don't know what the yea/nea breakdown was at that time, but was in favor of 'yea'. If you currently had access to the SWAPA newspaper, or the SWAPA online forums, you would easily draw the conclusion that every pilot at SWA wants this rule to be changed. Part of this is because there are an intensely vocal few pilots who may not speak completely for the rest of us. I've discussed the age 60 amendment with every CA that I've flown with over the last few months, and it has been my observation (perhaps I'll start an official poll at work!) that the majority (by an overwhelming margin) of these guys want the rule to stay in place! That being said, I'm still relatively junior and thus am flying with fairly junior captains, which naturally want career advancement. My suspicion is that the outcome of a vote at this point in the game may be completely different as there has been a tremendous amount of hiring at SWA in the last few years, and there are a lot of younger folks on the property. Personally I'd like to see another vote.



I have to laugh at the age discrimination argument because there is age discrimination everywhere in this country. The right to drive, drink, fight for your country are all dictated by age. Many of the federal law enforcement agencies have mandatory retirement ages, you can't be the President until you are 35, is that discrimination? How about the fact that you can't hold an ATP until you are 23? What if I was an extremely bright and responsible 18 year old should I have the right to claim age discrimination because I can't be an airline captain?



Lastly, for every FO out there, and everyone who wants to fly at a Major airline, don't buy the "Oh, this will be good for you, you'll be a captain longer!" hook. It just isn't true; it will make you a first officer for another five years, or keep you at the regional airline/military for that much longer. As for being able to work for another 5-7 years, are you sure that you'll hold a medical that long? I'm not. I sure plan to do everything in my power to make sure I'm healthy, but I'm not willing to delay my upgrade for a "chance" of working past age 60.



Every one of us knew the rules of this game when we got into it.. This whole issue reminds me of folks who move in a neighborhood directly under the final approach path of a busy airport, then complain about the noise.

greedy huh?

 

[PCL_128]

Every one of us knew the rules of this game when we got into it.. This whole issue reminds me of folks who move in a neighborhood directly under the final approach path of a busy airport, then complain about the noise.

greedy huh?

Bingo! Excellent analogy.

 

[FoxHunter]

Let me guess. Too short to get a military pilot's slot. Worked for an airline that was about to go out of business. Got bought out by FedEx. Didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting hired here off the street. You got no buddies to recommend you for anything. And now the world owe's you a job until you're drooling all over the yoke.

BTW- you can thank ALPA for your relative seniority at FDX. If it had been up to the non-union FedEx pilots you would have been stapled to the bottom.

Have a great day!

I actually started with Seaboard World as a DC8 F/O when I was age 21. Seaboard was bought by Tigers in 1980, and you know that Tigers was bought by Federal Express in 1989. During the period at Seaboard 1969-1978 I was on furlough for a total of over 7 years. Then I was also one of the 54 Seaboard pilots and FEs that were furloughed out of seniorty in 1981 for 6 months after the Tiger/Seaboard merger. Over those furlough periods I flew for Capitol, East African Airways, Aerovias Quisqueyana, International Air Bahama, EFS Bahamas, Rosenbalm, Sterling Philippines, Evergreen, and ONA based in Jeddah. My quess is that I have a fuller world view as a result of my experience.

Now as far as my height? I happen to be 5'9" so I don't think that was ever an issue. Yes, Federal Express bought Tigers, luckiest day in the life of any Tiger pilot, or the smaller number of Seaboard pilots working there. You are correct that I probably would never have been hired off the street. Hell, I don't even have a college degree. That really doesn't matter since I'm probably a lot senior to you and if that is the case it will never change.

The world doesn't owe me a thing. I like my job, do it very, very well, and I like working for FedEx. I don't have much time for those that sound very unhappy in their job. I would hope that does not include you, but I suspect it may. If I still like it when I turn 60 I plan to continue if the rule changes.

I can thank the contract that Tigers had plus Fred Smith and Sol Steinberg and the year of the purchase for the lack of staple. I believe the staple became common after USAIR stapled Empire and American did the same to Reno and for the most part TWA. Mergers have always been between pilot groups, funded by the indivdual groups. In the Federal Express/Tiger case ALPA made an exception and paid the Tiger expenses because in the end they wanted to represent the Federal Express pilots.

You also try to have a great day, try not to kick the dog.

 

[Dizel8]

Foxhunter,
sounds like a bunch of good stories waiting to be told!

 

[PseudoName]

Just b/c some guys bought houses/boats/airplanes/women that they shouldn't have, don't make the rest of us pay for it in our golden years. Live within your means and plan for the worst.

I agree. It's all about GREED!!!

On another note, have any of the airlines looked into the increased insurance rates on their aircraft when pilots over 60 fly??

I know on the corporate side, our insurance rates rise dramatically from age 60 to 70. After 70, it's too cost prohibitive to allow them to fly.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

GREAT post GearDaddy! By far one of the best I have ever seen on this subject!

The same guys crowing the loudest now ... didn't say a peep as they benefitted all these years. With thousands of young pilots furloughed and struggling to raise families, these old geezers greedily hope to benefit by changing a long-standing rule just before their retirement. I find it sad they can't think of anything they'd rather do in their last decade of healthy life than drive one of these aluminum tubes all day long.

BBB

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Greed can argued to be the excuse for keeping it the same. Get them out of here so I can upgrade and make more money.

Yes, there is age discimination everywhere. There is good reason for minimum ages in many/most cases. You do not want 12 year olds driving cars. Drawing the line at 60 for pilots has no credible basis. Some have no business flying past their early fifties, be it for physical or psychological reasons.

I know that changing the rule will have some negative effect upon my own and others advancement. I favor the rule being changed because I believe that it is wrong, period.

Many of those who are being forced to retire did not enjoy many of the benefits of those who worry about waiting a little longer to upgrade.

We are not "entitled" to an upgrade by a certain date in our carreers.

 

[skykid]

Greed can argued to be the excuse for keeping it the same. Get them out of here so I can upgrade and make more money.

Exactly. All the furloughed ba$tard$ are greedy as can be.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I hope you never have to endure being furloughed. Otherwise, your comment is ignorant.

 

[Dizel8]

Sarcasm perhaps

 

[Chest Rockwell]

If so, I apologize. It seems a week does not go by that I do not speak with someone furloughed or facing it.

 

[skykid]

Sarcasm perhaps

Uh, yeah. They must not have sarcasm where Chest lives. We've got thousands of pilots on the streets and these guys want to stick around past 60. They knew the rules when they got in this game. Change this rule and hiring/recalls will slow to a trickle for years to come. All the hiring at FedEx - gone. They have over 60 guys on the panel who will be looking to get back to the left seat. How about a Delta guy who took a lump sum retirement but now wants to come back? Have fun sorting that one out.

Turned 60? Go home, pop a few viagra, and step away from the controls.

 

[jetflyer]

I'm young (upper 20s) and face an uncertain future in the airline industry.

Maybe I'll be furloughed or be a pilot of a FAILED airline.

I save heavily now. Max out the 401(k) and my Roth IRAs, but what if my saved money has to be spent to survive a furlough or some life threatening illness in my family, etc.??

I think it would be nice to JUST HAVE THE OPTION to work till 65 or even 70. I may need to because I may not have been able to save enough for retirement.

I hope this age change happens and the higher the AGE the better.

God knows those losing their pensions need this too.

Jet