Song

[trainerjet]

Reading the spirited debate ongoing on this thread, as an outsider, I see holes in both side's arguments. However, the largest hole seems to be the General's fixation with Air Tran's "hubs". Any industry observer can clearly see that Air Tran is focusing all future growth in 3 areas, none of which even remotely suggests a new "hub". On the contrary, they are moving away from the hub concept. They are adding frequency to existing markets, they are adding flights to their "focus" cities (with no intention of making them "hubs"), and they are moving to more point-to-point service. All of which will, more than likely, serve them well.

I believe that Song may well have some negative impact on jetBlue, but until proven otherwise, I believe it will have a much larger negative impact on Delta.

 

[General Lee]

Trainerjet,

Why is Song having a negative impact on Delta? Delta has put Song on routes that will thrive and take market share from Jetblue. But hey, Song has only just started, so we should wait and see how they do. From what I have heard it has done very well. As far as hurting Delta, it is actually helping Delta. Song frees up seats that normally might be used to connect through ATL or CVG, so we can fill those seats with passengers connecting through one of our hubs. For example, if a passenger wants a low fare from BOS--TPA, they could either fly nonstop on Song or fly thru ATL and then onto TPA. By flying nonstop on Song, that leaves that seat from ATL-TPA open, allowing Delta to charge someone more money in Peoria who wants to go to TPA thru ATL. The communities with no LCC service, like Peoria and Des Moines, have more expensive tickets because that is the only way they are getting to TPA from those cities. It's all about keeping the fares higher through the hubs, and allowing the cheaper fares to go nonstop on Song, with a good experience to keep them from going to Jetblue or Southwest.

As far as Airtran going from point to point, that is good and that is sort of what Song is up to. Airtran really doesn't have a choice in the matter, since ATL gate space is limited now and expansion is also limited. Airtran's current point to point strategy is not affecting Delta---they have added a lot of city pairs that are below our radar screen --like MCO--DAY on Saturdays, LGA--Akron, LGA--Newport News, and BWI--Fort Meyers. Good for them.

SWA/FO,

First of all, Ty flies for Airtran, not Jetblue. Secondly,
Song's entertainment (when brought on line fully in OCT) factor might eat away at some of your growth, too. The fares will be about the same, and for longer flights out of MCO, some passengers might choose to fly back into BOS instead of your Manchester, NH because of the better planes, better food, better entertainment, and better frequent flyer program. We shall see, but adding more LCC's with a better product is not good for you either. Hey, we got this idea from Jetblue, and we saw the need to fight rather than retreat. We won't be replacing all of mainline with Song because we don't have to. The huge hub passengers mainly come from smaller towns that are brought in by our huge feed system comprising of RJ's and smaller mainline jets. We aren't diluting our product, we are just creating a buffer to affect the LCC's. We shall see if entertainment and perks wins out in the end.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flying Freddie]

Ty,
Is there any truth that Joe Leonard is hinting for pay cuts from the Pilot group? Just asking, not trying to get anyone upset.

 

[trainerjet]

General,

I didn't say Song was having a negative impact on Delta. If that's what you read, that's not what I meant. What I was saying is that I think that Song has the potential to have more of a negative impact on Delta than it does on jetBlue. Just my opinion.

Ty,

It seems that Flaming Freddie is at it again. I would simply ignore him.

 

[General Lee]

Trainerjet,

Well, our management doesn't think so, and Fred Reid was quoted in saying that he hopes to expand the presence of Song. I don't think he thinks there will be a problem, and he has all of the "numbers." I think they want to do whatever possible to stop Jetblue's growth and marketshare. I think they see the great product Jetblue offers, and wants to copy it. Atleast they are being proactive here, unlike other Majors. We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[trainerjet]

General,

I will admit there is something to be said for being proactive. Like you say, we will see. I wish you good luck. I hope things turn around for everyone, and everyone sees better days ahead.

 

[SWA/FO]

Did I say Ty works for jetBlue? no. I said "let 'em have it Ty"

In time SWA will be in GA. Its only a matter of time.

I just wonder about all this attention DAL is giving to jetBlue while Air Tran is growing in their backyard. Looks like a two front war to me? Lots of promises made about Song's TV's...I hope they can deliver by Oct.?

Has DAL lost market share in SLC to SWA, jetBlue & Frontier? yep.

 

[Blue Dude]

I think they want to do whatever possible to stop Jetblue's growth and marketshare. I think they see the great product Jetblue offers, and wants to copy it. Atleast they are being proactive here, unlike other Majors.

Your first sentence says it all. I think that's exactly what Delta's motivation is. It sure as heck isn't making a profit; that's only incidental to your main goal. Your second sentence describes how you intend to go about it. Which makes your third sentence contradictory. This is not proactive. This is the same old, same old: try to kill off a troublesome competitor to preserve your markets. "Proactive" means being innovative. Taking JetBlue's model and putting a different paint job on the airplane isn't proactive, it's just more aggressive than the other majors can be at the moment.

Your flaw is in thinking that JetBlue will have to sit there and take it. I think you're in for a surprise. This may cost you far more than it costs us.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I think Song will be successful IF it differentiates itself as a new airline, separate from Delta. Instead, they're confusing customers who show up booking Delta Flight 2451 JFK-PBI and wonder why their plane is Lime Green. Then they receive outstanding service from the inflight crewmembers and wonder, well, why can't the rest of Delta be like this??? The kicker, after all the song and dance from the inflight crewmembers, their show is washed by the flight deck crew who remind all passengers that the Song flight is flown by professional Delta pilots.

 

[General Lee]

SWA/FO,

Hmmmm. It was interesting that you had Ty and jetblue in the same sentence. Maybe I misunderstood you...?? So, Southwest is coming to GA, huh? Maybe Savanah or Macon, but probably not ATL. Sorry Herb and Company, but there are no more gates in ATL for you---and it will be years until another terminal is built. You can have Macon.

Yes, we know Airtran is in our backyard, and they have been doing well lately, which is good for them. But, they have very little room to expand anymore. Yes, they will be starting some A320 service (via Ryan Air) in the near future, but will have to give up some of their 717 space in the process. Maybe you aren't familiar with ATL, but Airtran has 1/2 of the C concourse, (the other half swarmed by ASA/Comair), and the very end tip of the D Concourse for it's Air Wisconsin RJ's. There really isn't any more room. They might try to get some gates at the E concourse, but that has customs and I think the airport authority would rather have mainly 777's and 767ER's there. As far as Airtran expanding their point to point and small mini-hub service at BWI etc, I think they should go right ahead. Their BWI mini-hub is probably affecting you guys at Southwest more than it is affecting us. We know Airtran is in ATL, and we respect them. It is just that they are at a loss when it comes to extra expansion. We on the other hand can swap things around and move a 737 from here to there and stick a 757 into that slot etc. We are adding ATL--HNL service on a 767-400 on Aug. 1st for example. We added that larger plane by probably moving a 757 out of ATL and putting it on the Song network. We have that flexibility. Airtran doesn't have enough extra gates to add A320's and keep the same number of 717's or DC-9's at the current gates. I doubt we will sell them any gate space. We are handling that "front" fairly well in this "war" as you call it.

Have we lost market share in SLC you ask? Probably a bit. Southwest has come in and now competes with us on SLC--LAX, LAS, OAK (Skywest competes on that one), PHX (Skywest again---although my friends have told me they have jumped on some of those and they were 1/2 full), BOI, RNO, PDX, and SEA. I think Southwest is doing fine on those routes, but Delta has major connection traffic from all corners, and the last time I flew in to SLC everything seemed pretty full. Frontier is really not a factor, becasue we have more flights to DEN from SLC than they do. Jetblue has almost no affect on us in SLC. They have one late night flight from JFK (that returns as an all nighter back to JFK) and one flight to Long Beach. I have heard that they will be cutting that LGB flight. I am pretty sure that Delta is still the major player at SLC, with help from Skywest ofcourse. Southwest might be a player there, but not as much as we are.

See you in Georgia SWA/FO---someday??? Come jump on us and see the wonderful people of ATL!!! (PS--unfortunately we do not fly naked---and that is a good thing, trust me)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

I've jumped on you guys before... Met some very nice folks. The F/A even made us ice cream sundaes (PDX-CVG).

Rode in on the ORF van early in the morning with a DAL crew, Capt. was way cool, FO was tired (West Coast guy), didn't talk much. One F/A was an NFL football junkie - I loved it!!!

In fact my first flight, ever was on Delta.

I just asked because some passengers ask us about ATL and somebody mentioned our loads out of SLC have been good.

Just trying to jump into some discussion...

 

[General Lee]

SWA/FO,

I am glad they were nice to you. Most of our employees are nice and actually care about people's comfort. The new ones at Song had to go through an "audition" to get hired over there, and for less money at that. The ones I have seen on Song were fun and not "old and cranky." I bet the guys you rode in the van with were either LAX based or SLC based on the 757---and if it was an early van--I bet they were tired. As far as the SLC loads for you, I am not really sure but I bet you are doing well out there. Your competition keeps our management in check---without you they would probably have all RJ's out there and charge an arm and a leg for fares. And, I don't know about Southwest going into ATL, primarily due to the real lack of gate space. But, I am sure the town of Macon would love for you to start a small hub there, and it is fairly close to ATL so who knows???

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cardinal]

I said against LCC's that are making money, Champ.

Well obviously Legend eventually ran out of equity. Yet we have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been had the 800 pound gorilla not ran internally subsidized 56 seat all first class service with a killer loyalty program on top of Legends network. They may well have had an effective model, but they were unable to execute it. Since jetBlue is public, it's easier to see that their model works, and as yet large scale predation hasn't occured. Time will tell. Anything can be killed, it's just a matter of how much cash need be expended to do get the job done, Chief.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don;t have to do CDO's., but thanks all the same. See, I work for a company that is growing. I hired on AFTER 9/11 and I never sat reserve. In fact, after a year and a half, I am well above the middle of the FO seniority list, which means I have a very sweet schedule . . . . I average 17 days off, and the most recent captain upgrades went to guys who hired on 6 months before me . . . . so don;t cry any tears for me, Lee.

Your airline, on the otherhand, better start looking for new areas to start hubs, because ATL is already capped for you.

Yeah, with two unused gates, ATL is really "capped"for us. Give me a break. Seems to me we have identified some low-hanging fruit to be a wiser use of resources for us at this particular point in our growth . . . but that's the advantage in being a LCC- we know how to identify an opportunity to MAKE money, and we move quickly. Who knows where you will see us next . . . . I hope it is CVG.

Let me know when you do the same, "General".
Bye Bye---General Lee [/B]

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

General Lee,

I would not refer to anyone who is as personally greedy as Leo Mullin as "genius".

Just my opinion.